June 09 09: UPDATES: new material added, some of which is also creative (see more bold yellow text at bottom of page, plus select other fans opinions (used with permission)



Mon Mar 23 UPDATE: Note: this is the NEW name. Old one was censured by a moderator, and an avid fan deleted oll the content on the page (NO ONE ELSE DO THAT PLEASE: This page is so anyone that reads threads in other places and want to know how I feel can read it directly and not mis-quote or misinterpret what I say. So I taken the time to go a bit more in-depth to try to prevent confusion. If you have something to say, please put it in the comments section at the very bottom)

The old name was:"Continuity Whores Must DIE!" NOTE: serious JF bashing (I try to be civil, but I think he's made a lot of mistakes and state my mind: if you don't approve of such then leave page (no harm - no foul), or leave a protest or other comment below. The content HAS been reviewed by wiki moderators. The content ALSO includes my own fanfic (ITEM # 5), which makes it my "art" and intellectual property. DO NOT ALTER THE CONTENT ON THIS PAGE IN ANY WAY. Please!

The outcome of this was also a special page that the moderator started for any fans that wish to post comments. How it works is every fan will have a link to their page and the read just clicks through to read.
Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles Fan Commentaries
http://terminatorwiki.fox.com/page/Terminator%3A+Sarah+Connor+Chronicles+Fan+Commentaries
Thank you Wiki-Kat for your help!

I wrote this in response to several fans on this wiki that are in complete denial about the melodrama, complexity of the plot threads (with on payoff in a year and little moving forward on any except the Riley intrusion) and how it seems the show has become the very thing JF feared: a soap opera.

Rather than subject fans to several long posts on the wiki, I made this page. Any who want to comment, please do so: I ain't scared!

Also, I invite you to check out my fan fic page, where I wrote a funny parady outlining the history of TSCC over the next few years, including how TSCC becomes the new T4, taking over both franchises and ruling the media world!
Satire on our future Terminator entertainment:
http://terminatorwiki.fox.com/page/Fanfic%3A+Satire+on+our+future+Terminator+entertainment

__________________________________________________

I will be adding to this page periodically, as other comments are made.

Check back for updates in this section.

___________________________________________________
I'm one of these soap complainers. So let me try to give you my point of view.

It is not that TSCC is a "bad" show. It is that JF has veered away from the core Temrinator story, and that is part of the reason it is not doing well in the public view. This IS important, bc it determines whether or not there IS a TSCC.

TSCC is supposed to be a sci fi action adventure. Schmacky and I have discussed this. The NAME of the show predetermines FOR viewers what they expect to see. JF not informing them of what they WERE going to get - something other than what they want or expect, is breaking a sacred covenant and makes the viewers distrustful: not the mood you want to set to get a popular show.

James Cameron's story has NATURAL drama IN it. No need to make some junk up and take the audience off on tangents. And KEEP them there. Ouch!

TSCC has not moved the plot along very far from the pilot. In a year of watching, even intense fans have no idea of what the characters are doing, and we KNOW the story!

TSCC has been made into a melodramatic mystery. All the stories have largely been based upon "character development," which Josh thinks needs to be done slowly lest TSCC does become a soap opera. but we have seen ep after ep with no action, Terminators doing little (so much so new viewers didn't even know who the T's were and revolted), little re main plot. We got remakes of Law & Order, Memento and Days Of Our Lives.

Soap operas have circular plots and really don't have much use for continuity. They are splintered and serial and it doesn't work to get to a given point but works to bring in more complex threads to "engross" the viewer in a tapestry made to approximate "drama" by piling on "problems."

Sarah Conners is the #8 all time ass kicker. She is rash, headstrong, and deadly focused. She's on the FBI's top terrorist list and is certifiably crazy. She fights robots, with an attitude!

3 billion people are going to die on the same day IF she is not successful. Her son will save all of humanity later. That which will kill the world is trying to kill him and her, and she is trying to protect her son while killing it. Doesn't get more "dramatic" than that.

But some TSCC fans seem to get drama and action confused with over the top effects and robots, etc. No. It's about GOOD WRITING. A compelling action story can have good drama IF it is well written. James Cameron DID this, and you can go to my profile and click no my fan fic page to SEE the clip that he made of Sarah and Kyle in T1. Action, drama, tension, emo...all very well done. But he cut it out. Why? Bc he didn't want to bog the viewer down.

JF has an entire season to work with - not just two hours - and that's ALL he had done TO us, the viewers. A whole ep went by and 10 seconds of actual sci fi action - and then it was so muhane it didn't make sense that an HK flying out of water wouldn't have the group scrambling for cover!

Instead, we get these weird interpersonal relationships that we all know are fluff: the TSCC crew needs to get its act together, come to togehter and fight. But, bc the writer's are stuck on the "drama" bs, no one of these fighter's EVER asks or DEMANDS any recon data from one another, and the net result is they keep making blunder after blunder. Unacceptable.

The writers think we should be as lazy mentally as they are creatively, so they can feed us stuff - bc it is good AND creative - that doesn't fit with the logic of the show. It is almost as if they are trying to force us to believe that this is not a show CALLED "Terminator."

That is where most of the drama comes from: their inability to provide us with what we want and expect based on the SUCCESSFUL tradition of a 25 year franchise!

I hope this answers your question about this matter. JF has tried to feed us **** and call it Terminator. Doesn't wash.

Again, his **** is good - some of the best written on TV. but he seems to have a chip on his shoulder about Terminator and it nearly killed the show.

And when he finally gets off his high horse and gets WITH the Terminator program, he provides some of the best eps ever. Funny, isn't it?

And Schmacky, before you rant about me ranting, I think you are fighting the wrong battle. JF was fighting his own show. Ask around, a lot of people look past his PR bs and think so.

I'm fighting for him to use his good, creative skills, and apply them to the logic of the baseline Terminator story, so we don't watch and wonder WTF, even WHEN we enjoyed his work.

He's had a SRA (Severe Reality Adjustment) and I think at some point will admit that.

Meanwhile, if you think I'm JF bashing, well, understand he IS the man in charge. Who ELSE are you going to blame that SHOULD take responsibility for this mess?

There are 16+ million fans of Terminator out there who make a concious decision EVERY week NOT to watch TSCC. That tells us a whole lot! You can defend JF if you want, but after hearing him live at WonderCon in SF I don't think he is trying to defend himself anymore. He KNOWS what he did worng, and decided to do it any way. He knows We are all paying the price for his actions.

He knows TSCC is an easy play to make, but he wanted to "push the envelope" for what he thought he could get away with. 18 mil didn't come to the pilot bc of Josh, they came bc of Terminator. He tried to make Terminator about himself, and it backfired. Now he is doing something that he should have done all along.

If you have any questions about this, just look at the promos Fox puts out, which Josh lies and says he doesn't know anything about. But as EP Fox bought this show - an investment of millions - based upon WHAT he sold them. The NAME says it all. Their promos match the name! Strange coincidence? Probably not. And yes, Schmacky, if my assumption is that JF sold Fox this show based on pitching it around the name, then he IS lying.

And I betcha that ain't going to be very much drama, and soap opera format stuff.
----------------------------
ADDENDUM:

ITEM #1. JF should have named this show "No Fate." Doing that, I'd have no problems with anything he did with the show, using Terminator after T2 as the backdrop and Sarah as the central character. But by using the name, and invoking the all mighty female action hero of all time causes me to taken offense by what he has done:
A. Dulled the story down to a crawl, and made it about introversion and a bunck of other stuff that would get it booed of of the Lifestyle Channel for anyone that knew the orig T story.
B. Does nothing to move the actual plot forward, so we SEE what the chronicles of Sarah's life ARE.
C. Watered the Terminator down so far it is often washed completely out of the thread being presented.
D. Splintered the plot into overly complex and minutelly detailed segments, few of which actually have to do with Skynet causing JDay in a few years and killing 3 billion people at one time. TSCC plot has no sense of urgency, that Sarah and John and Derek know this IS going to happen and they are the only ones that can stop of postpone this.

Obviously we know that is NOT true for them: this is the "style" Josh chooses to use, and it is a BAD judgement call. He admitted to bad pacing at WonderCon (yes, I went there specifically to hear the guy speak firsthand to give him a fair shot - now, I'm just throwing his decisions under the bus, but not asking for his head...) and because of his lack of respect or reverence for James Cameron's Terminator story he keeps grossly violating aspects of it that we know are not consistent with what these characters would do.

ITEM #2. Do I have an agenda? Yes, on two levels. Small scale: I think Fox should hire some of the brilliant fans that DO love the show and let them in on the Terminator money train. Lots of good ideas on this wiki and it is we alone that make this show hang on by a thread. In case you didn't know, I personally had 14 tech tech guys watch an ep - Desert Cantos - and they howled that this was nothing like what they expected and never wanted to see it again. When the PRODUCT turns (new) people off then something is fundamentally wrong. The biggest problem in marketing is getting folks to NOTICE you, not doing damage control AFTER they had legitimately TRIED it. I went out and got the direct demographic that Fox needed for their target advertisers. The viewers were very interested in the outcome for Sarah that followed after T2 - the exact reason I tuned in. (You should know by know I'm a Sarah T2 shipper of the highest order).

Some sort of feedback other that just pure fandom should be used so TPTB can tap us AS a resource creatively, for continutity, for PR and for ideas. JF seems to think he'd run out of ideas if he uses them up to fast. That's HIS universe; in our there is an ABUNDANCE of ideas. JDay doesn't happen for a few years. How does Sarah prep for it. How does she prep John for the tasks he will face ahead? How far is she willing to go, even being "off the grid" but involved with world altering activites - the focal point af everything both good and bad? How does she die? The war ends 2029 - nearly two decades after it starts. How do humans survive in all that time? How do they fight? How do they eat? I know a lot will ride on T4 explaining, but TSCC could and should "set the table" very well. The militaries of the world. The national regimes and power structure. The industry. The cultures. The PEOPLE, all washed away, and if tens of thousands of years meant nothing; gone, in just one day. Are there any others that would support a premise, knowing how on the brink we live from day to day? Would join or support Sarah's fight?

These are higher level premises that are not dealt with on TSCC. From the Mafia to the Vatican, there are lots of well organized groups that get good intel and want to not get wiped out by anyone's stupidity. Is there any assistance anyone could or would be willing to provide? What agenda's would come with their help, and who has the authority to deal with them BEFORE JDay happens?

What is someone like Jesse came back to set themselves up to rule after JDay? How would Sarah stop them and should she even try?

Yes. These are all dramatic concepts, but also sci fi action adventure ones. Not soap opera ones. See the dif?

Big scale: I got it in my head that it'd be cool to have a TSCC fan based video game. Don't know how we can pull it off but we have a group of fans all around the world that have an interest and are working on the project. I set up an email accout at NoFateGame@yahoo.com, and we will post (good) fan art and fan fiction at www.NoFateGame.com.

I'd like mucho feedback from fans and everyone is invited to participate in this project: we want to be certain FANS of TSCC consider what we are doing cool and exciting. This is our way of ensuring you have TSCC all you want any way you want, folloting JF's vision or following your own: shipper or anti alike.

That's how I contribute: putting in work. I hope you enjoy the effort. All is done with a passion for this show, a desire to see it succeed - thinking we know what is pretty clear what will entail to DO that - being huge Terminator fans, and a long and intense love and admiration for Sarah Conners (as played by Linda Hamilton) as an all time fav character.
She second only to Bruce Lee in Enter The Dragon IMO.

ITEM #3. Hope for the future: T4 will come out the month after tSC ends, and will go to DVD when TSCC would come back. That's will be tens of millions of people buying the T brand. It will also have SC voiceover on it, and this is the SC chroniles. Nice crossover...

That the two are not more connected is - again - bc of JF's pigheadedness. To not look at the marketing perspective of this is sheer foolishness, and he should know better being in charge of multi-million dollar operation in the heart of a recession!

I'm not saying they need to do anything that crosses over artistically. I wouldn't go that far and there's no need. But "Saving Humanity: In the Future, and in the Present" is not a hard campaign to imagine. That's just off the top of my head, not sitting in a room full of smart successful media people and hiring the best agencies to devise a campagin.
Other non-related stuff gets promoted in movies all the time. It's a staple of media now. But Terminator can't even help itself to sell itself? And it's one of the most successful media brands of all time? And TSCC has as it title THAT name AND the #8 all time ass kicker?

Wow. Anyone else understand my frustration with JF? He's at the root of this IMO, and not just a victim of circumstance that he protrays. I think he flat out lies about not knowing about marketing, or ratings, or what bad effect his business desicions would have on the show. I think his is stubburn to a fault.
Look at the name of the show and Fox promo of it. I bet that is what they thought they had baught (for millions) and what they were pitched. I think JF sold them - and the public - something knowing he intended to deliver something else. That's dishonest.

What he has delivered isn't "bad." Most of it is quite good. but it isn't what was PROMISED. He should have delived that, then slipped in what he wanted WHEN it would be acceptable.
McG is trying to deliver what's promised - after taking time and effort to find out what that promise sho8uld be - and we'll see how successful his business strategy is. Two visions, one closed, one open. TSCC is suffering, T4 tba

ITEM #4: I think JF has his writers throwing dirt on SC's good name, and spitting in the face of her legacy as the #8 ass kicker of all time. What has JF or the writer's done in terms of accomplishment?

This is supposed to be a show to honor what she's done and what she is fighting TO do - which are mightly important to the survival of the human race. Does this make her the MOTHER of the entire human race? Maybe. Should WE be thankful? Certainly: how many of us would put up with what she has been supbjected to - or subjected herself simply bc she felt and understood the need?

These ARE "heroic" principles. Best stated with "get the shotguns, I'll make pancakes."

All the rest has largely been melodramatic crap that are the mental masterbations of JF and the writers. They don't "get" it. Not sure they are true fans of Sarah or of Temrinator.

Most of what they do use the Termiantor name and characters and main plotline, but as a backdrop - just props, or cardboard faces pasted on the actors and dialogue. They are not the real deal.

Even Cameron as an invention is brialliant, then they shelve her for most of the season - and she is the #1 reason what's left of the hardcore fan base IS watching the show.

I think the writers of TSCC are ****s for doing this; and JF as head is the head ****head.

The characters don't derserve to be protrayed this way. They didn't do anything to be made emo, stupid, blundering, ineffective, careless and sloppy.

We don't deserve to be treated this way, and factually, we can vote to choose not to by not watching. 16 mil vote that way each week. Remember, they didn't just tune into the pilot and then say no, they go about their lives each week and make a new vote each week to say no.

Obviously, there is going to be a wide range of fandom, some causual, some intense. But I bet there's a lot (half) that WOULD watch IF the writers actually paid attention to WTH they are doing with these characters. I think viewers no longer watching figured if the writers don't care to pay thier respects why should they? Maybe rightly so - some of the violations have been way bad.


ITEM #4: I saw the part two promo video of Sarah questioning Cameron about why JC of the future sent her back with her premise being he didn't want her around, and although it was a good scene, and well acted, it set me off. So I wrote a rant (I know, I shouldn't have, but I couldn't help myself). I have tried to let these back nine soak in, but it appears to me that JF hasn't really learned his lesson: he's adjusted his course but he is still off base as far as Terminaoter is concerned. So this is what I wrote on the blog comment section:

This is a good scene, but obviously, Sarah is trying to take charge of the Conner household. She spoke to Cameron as if she were a child: "you're not going anywhere..."

The question is one I've asked myself, and the only answer that makes sense is JC of the future knows he's going to be faced with some dire peril that Cam saves him from. Duh! Sarah should be able to figure this out, but for some odd reason she can't figure why sooooo many people and Cam come back and none actually seek her out (except the basebment wall guy...maybe JC of the future doesn't trust HER leadership - since she isn't really leading anyone right now.

She isn't DOING anything either, other than getting herself shot, caputered and tortured ("how's the hand?"). Skynet is gonna let loose JDay and she has no sense of urgency to stop it. She's more concerned with stopping Cameron from getting near John; who, BTW, is "out there" somewhere alone and unprotected AS this scene was playing out!
I don't blame Sarah though. I blame the writiers as it is they that that all this stuff up and once again their policy to make TSCC a drama rather than a sci fi action adventure takes them down a sub trail that has nothing or very little to do with the larger scheme of things.

Point your weapons at the REAL enemy ladies: it ain't each other!

Are you listening JF? When will you learn your lesson about engaging us in sideshow bullshit? James Cameron directed a brilliant scene where SC and JC argue over destroying Uncle Bob's chip when they had the chance. Real, intense drama, power struggle, etc - everything THIS scene had in TSCC. But he CUT it because of PACE. It was just too distracting from the pace of the ACTION and he felt he could convey these concepts in ohter ways VIA the action and keep the STORY moving.

For TSCC, after watching faithfully, I have to ask the question: WHAT story? Even your fans don't KNOW what that is. Where's the action? Few scenes and far between. Sci fi? That would be Skynet, and we don't see that either!
All this stuff about how Sarah "feels" didn't MAKE her the #8 all time ass kicker! She needs to kick some ass - and it is YOUR job to go find some ass for her to kick! And she needs to make the others toe the line to go WITH her. That's the dynamic that wee NEED - or this is just T1 with no Kyle to help her.

Divided we fall. That IS what is happening with the Conner crew and the show about them. Please learn this fundamental lesson that Terminator is NOT about a bunch of melodramatic mystery crap portrayed in a soap opera format. Look at the shots of this scenes, and the majority of those show THIS season: your worst fear of TSCC becoming a soap opera is already here - and you know it! This may be because of the budget you have been given to work with, I don't know.

I do know you are trying to pass off half baked action via the internal struggles of the lead characters, and that doesn't MEAN anything when they all know the entire earth is about to become burnt pot roast and they are all that stands in the way of that!

The mains just need to come together. That was part of what was good with S1 when it was good. Getting away from that dynamic is a mistake. We were beginning to see the strength of these characters and how they can play off one another and function under stress as a unite that knows each other and what they each need to do to succeed AND succeed at their mission. Now they are strangers and at each others throats, and brooding, and accusative...and this sounds EXACTLY like a soap opera!

Again, while the scene looks and sounds cool - and I'm gonna take flak for saying this - but knock it off and give us a sci if action adventure already! The drama occurs from the natural tension of the Terminator story, which you continually seem to ignore and find a substitue for. Not okay.

You have a better shot than most shows of being renewed in the position it is in. I hope you don't blow another round of eps like this. Yeah, its "good," but its not good Terminator. And for anyone that is wondering where all this is coming from, the NAME of this show is "Terminator: The Sarah Conners Chronicles." We already KNOW what her chronicles are: she devotes her life to the protection of her son, by destroying Skynet in order to do so. That ain't that complex!

That she is questioning JC's orders (and why didn't JC send a message to SC in the past using Cam's voice box, so she would have no question as to what his intent was? Again, a contiuity oversight IF you are writing this as a tactical action story and not a melodramatic soap) or not being send directives as to what targets to go after makes no sense to me. Plus, they should have developed some sort of "message in a bottle system" from the past where they tuck away stuff the JC in the future can find, to fact check their progress against what is going on in this reality.
But the non-communicative atmosphere only works for the writers who think we don't know this is a WAR story first and foremost. They don't act like it is war, they don't even address the war issue, other than it being something "far off in the distance." Not true. JDay happens in THIS time period (within a few years) and the rest goes to hell later.
Sarah should actually stop tryign to stop Skynet and start helping John get a head start on fighting to win later. So Cam's mission to help stop Skynet in the past can't be right: both her and JC know that sending her back is verification that SC didn't stop Skynet. Go to Plan B!

Yikes! What a mess. Please, someone get a clue. Start applying the logic of the Terminator story to YOUR story, and maybe you'll not drive away MILLIONS of fans OF Terminator every week, beacuse these people haven't DIED (yet, no JDay has happened) and they make a concious descion NOT to watch this show. But we KNOW they are gonna come out and watch T4 - and probably do so again and again.

The formula is simple: war then; war now. And we have Sarah! Why mess that up? The war is not wihtin sarah's ears. We KNOW she's been in the loony bin. We know she is wound very, very tight. But we also know she kicks ass - facing the toughest things mankind has ever confronted, this side of an exploding A-bomb. And she WINS. She's headstrong, impulsive, goes on "intuition," rambunkious, but she's ALL we got, and you've given her help which is turning out to be know help at all. So what is to become of mankind WHILE you portray this time wasting mind frak?

We get done it, that's what. Is that the "moral" of your story. Sure seems that way. And this seems nothing remotely like anything I've seen of Terminator.

What becomes of the show? In danger of being lost, because you can't seem to figure out the plain and simple factors that have made this franchise a success for 25 years!

I hopte you take this to heart, and really try to do a better job, Terminator-wise. You already have one of the best shows on TV as far as writing goes. You have the best sci fi character on TV since Mr. Spock. But you are wasting her. She only gets snipets and now the only way you can have her in the same scene with the lead is to have them be confrontational. How can they both protect JC doing that? Honestly? Are we to believe they would both forsake their duties to go at each other - when God know what in the guise of who can walk in and blast them all to hell?
Why isn't Sarah looking into whoever JC said Riley had spoken to - about THEM? Why aren't her and John and Cam and Derek - and thus Jesse via Derek - looking to find the real keller and the real motive for her death? Obviously someonw was either trying to shut her up or trying to cover their tracks. Hello? BIG RED FLAG!

This clip was great acting by Lena and Summer. But it makes no sense. You give us something new but things i
n the recent past - like the HK aren't even mentioned anymore. Instead, we get a talk it out cat fight. Cam rips Sarah, Sarah rips back. Ho hum. They both have GUNS. They SHOOT people - and things. They are both BAD ASS! They are not scared of each other. So IF they view each AS a threat then guess what SHOULD happen.
And we know that is a crack. so WHY are you handing us this home grown garbabe? Yeah, it was nicely done. Big deal. Time for them to mount up and ride together like SOLDIERS. That's WHAT both Cam and Sarah ARE.
They NEED a mission. They ARE going stir crazy not doing anything (much) in a year. We need a mission to.
And if you don't find one then Fox is going to find one for you!

No fate but what WE make, remember?

ITEM # 5: NOTE: this item contains some observations on the show, then a fanfic by me that is an alternate vision, using TSCC characters and Terminator logic. I've done a couple of these, including a funny satire on future on TSCC in the media with T4 at
Satire on our future Terminator entertainment:
http://terminatorwiki.fox.com/page/Fanfic%3A+Satire+on+our+future+Terminator+entertainment

[THIS WILL BE FORMATTED SOON. PARAGRAPH BREAKS DON'T COPY OVER FROM A MS WORD DOC!] --THIS WAS PART OF A THREAD DISCUSSION AT

I think this is the best discussion regarding this that's been on this wiki.

All or you bring up excellent points.

Truth is, we'll never really know what was going on with JF or Fox. I think both of them have had a hand in taking a GOOD show into places IT doesn't deserve.

But the people that have the rights to the franchise name made T3; so they can be said to be trying to make a buck off of that name.

Even the best written sci fi show ever - BSG - not only has flaws but also doesn't have a huge viewership, compared to network standards.

Terminator comes with LOTS of baggage. Some points were made about people have pre-conceived notions about what the show was going to be about. I think a lot of people that did watch had these also, and think this is not what they expected.

That is not to say just dumb A-Team action is what they expected but it may be that any sci fi show is not going to do well, and then add to that one that has viewers expecting intense action and getting intense melodrama may be a bad mix no matter what you do. TSCC is still one of the best written shows on TV - and certainly one of the best in the sc fi genre.

But..

It is very light on sci fi. We saw a HK pop out of the water and it has not been mentioned since.

Continuity sucks. Sarah got shot, had life threatening surgery, then broke her thumb, and it seems everything is all good. Was this overnight? After months of recovery. We don't know.

Action. Few action scenes and far between. Most of these characters don't like each other. Somebody should at least fight. Oh, and then there's the fight to stop Skynet. Very little done on this front too.

We loyal fans have watched for a year and still don't know what the plot of this show is, what the characters or doing, or why.

Many of the plot developments are very good however; but you IF you have to watch a show several times in order to understand, appreciate, and really enjoy it then I don't think that is going to work for TV.

Even the killer cyborgs don't really do a lot of killing and if you didn't follow previous eps you prolly wouldn't know who they are!

[NOTE: at this point I started to "blue sky" an alternate scenario for TSCC using the existing characters, but trying to stay within what we know of this era before JDay and also sticking to what I believe is Terminator canon. I used no notes, and wrote this in one sitting, with really not much prior thought aobut it. But I had been challenged by a TSCC fan (or two) that I didn't have the write to rant bc I couldn't write anything better than what was offered. So, having a feeling that TSCC was off track from the very beginning by starting in a high school setting, I considered the "what if?" proposition of resetting back to the beginning and how Sarah and John's life might play out after Uncle Bob is gone.

This is about as rough as it gets, so be forewarned. I make no excuses for it: it is what it is. I would like to see some kind of video game scenario or video or graphic novel or something that does provide alternate propositions to what TSCC has offered on TV. Not saying the show is bad, but the scope of it is very small - based on a safehouse that is still exposed to police and other "bad" elements for the Conners, and they don't seem to have a plan about fighting Skynet or the coming war (nor are they preparing for it). These things bug me enough to want to read other fan fic that is not so arrogant as to minimize the scope of Terminator - and the two people tasked with saving all of humanity all over the world. I just don't get that epic feel; although the last 5-6 eps have been much, much more of what I'd like to see out of the program and I've enjoyed very much. The potential for TSCC to be a hit show is there, and I do like JF's work (especially these last eps) and hope we get a S3.]

Adventure. This is supposed to be a WAR story, I thought. Where's the war? 3 billion die on JDay, but there's no sense of urgency to stop this.

Logic. Even the pilot had many things that were just "off" and the entire plot line should have been re-thought IMO to reset the stage. Example was JC even being in high school, a place where SC has no access, but hundreds of people she doesn't know do. Tactically, bad; and she was still on alert to dangers after two years - making JC pack and leave on short notice: they are still fugutives, even with no Skynet or JDay or Terminators to chase them.

The ep we are going to see today is a good example of *real* compelling Terminator action: JC has a T-888 running a sub; it goes bad and the human crew are trapped deep underwater with this killing machine in tight confines and no place to escape. That kind of premise could have made TSCC stay at Lost-like viewer levels IMO.

Sarah also should be smart enough to know she needs resources, and a back-up plan in case Skynet is built and JDay happens. So she should probably be "on the wrong side of the law" pulling capers with convicts to finance a merc army to get intel and hit the targets she values - or Cameron informs her JC of the future wants hit, once she is introduced as a character. I'd much love to see Caminator in the midst of a bunch of human bad asses who don't trust SC but she pays well, or why she hovers over her kid, or why this "little girl" has so much "in" with them all of a sudden. It'd be fun to see a pack of "alpha" personalities have to deal with that, and when some of them don't remain subordinate to it, get a severe reality adjustment.

This would also allow SC to have mob, black market, and underground connections, which would provide plenty of weekly bad ass bad boy minions for us to get our action rocks off on: SC, JC, and Cam (even Derek - I really like bringing in Kyle's big bro from the future, and maybe even some of his team is on board too) having to work with baddies, but their objective is to save the world. This would bring up the moral dilemma: can two (or more) wrongs make a right? When it comes to saving 3 billion, yes.

This would open up this part of Sarah's life to an entirely different, and wider stage. JC would kind of be the kid that grew up on a pirate ship with a bunch of scallywags, but his mom Cap'n Black to the public authorities would have the Grand Purpose that justifies her actions. Ellison and the FBI would also take a larger role, with he and his former The Shield woman partner being our modern day Mulder and Scully: she is dead set on using whatever resources to take #1 terrorist Conners down, as the suspected head of a major underground cartel, stealing and blowing things up all over the world, and Ellison, who is suspecting something larger is happening, as the evidence leads him to impossibly fantastic conclusions.

How Cam is introduced could have been different too. She could have been "scoping out JC for quite some time" and posed as a clerk at a clothing or electronics store he goes to on occasion (he is a tech head) and gathers up enough info from "casual" conversations with him to id her target. This arc could have been laid out for some time as we see how she gathers intel, follows him, does a whole FBI-like investigation of him, which is far beyond what humans can do. She also has no morals so she can kidnap, interrogate, and dispose of Sarah's lackey's with no remorse. This could make Sarah wary as people start coming up missing connected to John. Would also be a great way to introduce Derek as sent back to follow John’s orders but they run into each other and Derek knows Cam…could be intense. He could also be seen as a threat to other minions who are jockeying for power, but Derek and his unit walk in and get red carpet with the Conners. Later, same Evil!Jesse/Riley plot (since Derek doesn’t know Jesse in the future) with same result, but now you have a lot more mystery as everyone around them is seedy. John goes on a vengeful kick and he decides to take on several REAL killers who might have motive for killing Riley (hit on her, attempted rape, saw something she shouldn’t have, found spying for Jesse and thought it was for something they were doing, etc.)

Basically, we could have had a whole alternate universe using the same characters but with a different settings. Even CW could be a big bad as the T-1000 set up with her own corp power structure that also is involved with black market, underworld stuff, and illegal research and hording of resources and supplies, and also assassinating rivals. Ellison might be “on” to her but can’t prove anything. She doesn’t keep him bc she uses him for intel as to how much FBI knows (meaning how far along Skynet is in the military.)

Cromartie could have been such, changing his plan from targeting JC on a full-time basis to his own self aware agenda, which causes him to be discovered by Ellison, who doesn’t kill him for the same reason as CW. He doesn’t even care if Ellison knows as he knows he cant’ prove anything – even telling him he has his own agenda, but that still includes killing JC, which Ellison will help by leading him to him.

Cromartie poses as successful actor turned business man, who starts a holding co. that buys up firms doing military and high tech research. He does as much hiring of hitmen as he does his own ops as a Terminator. Basically, he decides screw the War of the Future, he is going to remove all threats so that he can have both Skynet AND humans under his control IN the future. CW has a different agenda, and he and Cromartie cross swards and become rivals and enemies. They are both powerful, plotting, and have lots of men, weapons, etc at their disposal to use against each other. CW doesn’t know about JC. She is on another mission, but she does manage to pick up Vick or Stark’s body and use that as a platform to house her AI program.

JC learns of this AI program by hacking into research labs, and becomes a target of CW even though she doesn’t know who her enemy really is. So we have multiple antagonists, multiple plot threads, all of them intriguing and dangerous, and everywhere we remain aware fuse is still lit for JDay.

Sarah is dealing with stealing for good. Working with people that are professional thieves and contract killers – both military and criminal. Prepping for Jday but staying out of range of cops, FBI, internal power struggles, plots against her, and two Terminators who are also rivals to each other and also have JC on their radar (one active and one passive: CW just wants to kill whoever has been snooping on her operations).

Charlie could even be Sarah’s love interest, as she puts on a front with him as the plain and “normal” relationship, but he knows SC and JC are keeping some “big secret” among them, and they like to travel a lot. She keeps her own household, but they stay with him. John really cares for him, and he John, providing brief moments of a “father figure” he needs as a trusted friend in life.

He is aware JC has two “girlfriends” and wonders which on he will choose, Cameron the quirky mostly silent and observant one, or Riley, the rambunctious hippie type: both seem to have some deep seated “issues” behind their pretty faces. Cam seems to be around more, but Riley is much more out going and flirty. John can’t tell him Cam is a robot. Riley can’t tell JC she knows Cam is a robot. Derek keeps tabs on Cam, but he should be watching Riley too. His own gf is Riley’s handler, and he doesn’t know it. Would make an interesting dinner date all of them going out, and sitting at a restaurant’s table.

Just trying to give you some idea of how action can be portrayed dramatically. I don’t even know if any of this stuff is any good as a premise, but it sounded good to me as I was typing it.

We’d have a core dynamic where the mains stay together working as a team bc they have a “family secret” that they share that others around them do not – even though these people following orders are helping in their efforts.

We’d have a way to have serialized action AND do stand alone arcs that could go one or several eps.

We’d have multiple plot threads all coinciding with the main story arc, and would violate that fundamental premise. We’d have SC as a bad ass, having her “crew” plan and pull off capers like the CyberDyne Systems op, but this time for various reasons – some to destroy, others to steal, others for information. She doesn’t tell her people, and the support contacts “everything” and if/when any of them get too close they could get whacked for fear of telling what they know to police.

She’d also be running a “secret army” although they don’t know what the real motives are or who is behind their missions. She functions as a “messenger” to them, and pays them when they are done. Her “private life” is a front, but she needs Charlie and relies on him to give her “balance” in a world she knows can never have balance like this again, which in itself makes her sad, and haunted by nightmares that she can’t shake. This makes her unsettling, as things others view as trivial sets her off, and makes her appear unstable. Charlie is aware of this, and is the insulation for her “live wire” personality.

JC watches all this and sees and learns how she copes with building an underground organization off the radar, using the available resources, manpower and abilities, on different levels. She keeps it all together, with several major directions each of them doing what she directs but none of them knowing the full story, and all of them protected from giving away any of the others if they get caught.

She’s a big bad ass amongst various kinds of bad asses, and she has some bad ass backup.

JC although young is learning what it takes to be a “leader.” The people around him are hardcore, and he starts to take a hardcore view of life. Rather than whining, he steps up, often upsetting SC bc she wants him nowhere near being in harms way. In LA, she poses as a stunt woman who works in b movie sci fi films. This allows them to have enough money to have a house on the hill, gated fense, big dogs, etc. and she can walk around AS a bad ass driving a big truck, and wearing boots, doing martial arts, practicing shooting guns etc. This is also a cover for them traveling a lot, as she home school’s her son and takes him with her wherever she goes.

Cam comes along with them, but they are mostly supposed to be childhood friends that go in and out of a “ship.” They “fight” a lot, displaying a volatile public relationship, so as to keep the crim people around them off balance about what is really going on: can’t have them kissing in public if they are bf/gf! This gives Jesse the in to have Riley thread come into being, as JC knows he can’t have fake robot love but Riley is cute, is human, and takes a real interest in him. New Love Triangle, but with a sci fi, Terminator, and even JF twist!

Jameron’s get what they want, and anti’s too. Derek comes in as dark “Uncle” who is merc but other mercs don’t know where he’s worked – which makes them both wary and scary. He like fast cars, nice clothes and has hot also bad ass gf. Word on street she is some military bagman James Bond chick. Derek lives lifestyle of James Bond, fulfilling the fantasies of his childhood: how would you live your life if you could go back and do it all over again? The skills he picked up in the war make him far superior to human mercs of present time. So few challenge him, but all suspect he has a garage full of bones in different places. When he is “around” between “gigs” he hangs out with John. They have Charlie come around a lot too, to sell the whole family men bonding thing.

Charlie can see that Derek and Jesse are doing something that is not above board, but he thinks they are drug dealers or smugglers. He thinks Sarah is also in or gets a cut or helps them make contacts. As a plot arc, he gets so suspicious he almost goes the FBI, as Ellison has questioned him and tried to get him to turn many times. This is why Derek has him hang out with he and John, to measure what he will do. Cam also watches, but no one really wants to kill SC’s bf.

There comes a point when they are actually thinking about doing this, but Derek is conflicted as this is the man that saved his life from a gunshot wound. Cam doesn’t have that problem, but Sarah doesn’t trust her, so she is planning to off Charlie without Sarah suspecting it is she, if the need arises. Before it does – just a hairs breath – Charlie turns to Sarah and interrupts her meeting and demands to talk to her. They hash it out and she brings in Derek and makes him tell her about JDay and who he is. Charlie doesn’t believe him, so he has John come in and explain in his own words what is going on – without any coaching from them. John is confused but Sarah tells him that now is the time to bring in Charlie, or we’re going to have to kill him before he goes to the police, so John does. Still confused , Sarah calls in Cameron, she walks right in with the gun still in her hands. She tells Charlie the same story. Sarah asks Charlie to pick her up: he can’t. She tells him to punch her, but not too hard so he won’t break his hand. Finally he does and the truth sets in that all these people believe this.

He then learns of some of the key plans they have to obtain certain data, resources and manpower as either an offensive or defensive objective. She tells him although they are in this time, and stay off the grid, they have no problem with bending the rules: they believe most in USA will be wiped out on JDay, so what does it matter? They also feel if there was anyone they felt they could talk to, to stop Jday, they would: but the military industrial complex would only use the data for greedy purpose and computer algorithms show just about any scenario they play out Skynet gets built and JDay happens.

So yes, people have died in their cause, innocent people. They use criminals, thieves and murders to get what they need done. But that’s not what causes the nightmares for all of them. It’s the reality of what all of this means. So he has to decide right there in or out live or die. Too much is at stake for it to be otherwise.

He’s in, and uses Ellison to give him info about what he knows about killer robots from the future and nuclear war that wipes everything out. This connection brings Ellison in too, but on a limited basis. He is protecting them, after meeting with SC against the advice of the others. Charlie believes she can trust Ellison, but not the other agent, his partner. Ellison starts destroying evidence and covering their tracks. His partner thinks he has gone off the deep end, and he becomes obsessed. His wife puts him out.

He believes maybe man and machine can live together and becomes fascinated with Cameron. By doing so, other’s think she has become his snitch, and her car gets blown up, which sets off both glitch and finding the bomber threads. Ellison is also thought to be a double agent, and he is. He takes bribes from CW for info and has been doing so for some time. He suspects CW is a corp crook but may have info re Skynet so he keeps up the ruse. She finally shares her secret: she got the Vick/Stark body and has repaired the head (time machine thing could still be a part of this somehow), so his feelings about man/machine living together could be true. She has hired Dr. Silverman to help, and would like Ellison’s “take” on the work he is doing with JH, as a professional trained police observer.

What Ellison observes is how creepy CW is, and the reactions of her daughter. Also, CW is known to disappear at times on “business,” and leaves the child with her nanny for extended periods of time. He confronts her about this finally, and threatens to call Social Services to look into child abandonment, and how emotionally detached she is from her child and how afraid the child is of her – all signs of abuse. This finally leads to CW going to child services and massacring entire office, as a series killer she saw on the news.

This leads Ellison to believe by cross-checking cases that the real serial killer didn’t have anything to do with this, and the only connection he could think of was someone that would think Social Services Agents could possibly be a threat. Plus, Ziera corp staff have had their own share of “incidents,” both on the job and off: so many that the FBI has a betting pool going on for life expectancy? Lots of people are quitting, scared, and CW is trying to hold it all together and keep a calm face in the face of adversities that she didn’t know humans had to go through. She not only has a mean streak in her, but she also can become frustrated.

Cromartie had already told Ellison – after killing several FBI agents in a raid, before he changed his face – that he was self aware. He, CW and Cam are taking in data all the time and learning about humans and what they do. This information is absorbed, processed, and becomes a part of what they do and thus who they are. They still run on objectives, but with a higher order of HOW they go about what they do. Also, they literally can write their own programming, by “choosing” other objectives that they find necessary to pursue. So Cam takes up an interest in baler, which also helps others to understand her being “high strung.”

Sarah takes it upon herself to find out why Skynet sent yet another Terminator back to kill John. She wants to know how many time machine facilities they have, and where they are. She want s to know how they can tell how many are sent back and why. Seems time travel gives off a certain type of radiation, that she has Cam and others perfect a detection device. This uncovers Riley as Jesse’s aid, which stirs up a hornet’s nest. Sarah is going to shoot Riley. Cameron is going to shoot Riley. Derek is going to shoot Riley. Jesse is going to shoot Riley, so not give away her plot. John wants to let them.

Jesse goes on the lamb, and is now a wild card in the equation. John orders the rest not to execute Riley, who was just a pawn in Jesse’s plan to place a wedge between he and Cameron. She stays on, but the love John had for her is gone. Poor girl never even knew what the real objective was.

Being from the future, she goes back to foster parents, but her will is broken – she seems as if she is in jail on death row, just waiting to die. She slits her wrists, but is found before she dies, and put in a mental institute on Death Watch.

This really, really, REALLY bugs Sarah, so she plans an ops to get Riley out of there. She does, and stashes her away: Riley becomes a symbol for all Sarah has been fighting for, and she wants to make an example of her life: fight or die. They have a heart to heart and Sarah tells her about Kyle and what she’s gone through.

This is the first time anyone has really spoken to Riley in a long, long time. She’s mostly lived off of rats for the past five years. Sarah tells her that her life should mean something, that we have to fight for whatever life we can live while we still live. She tells her that she was going to kill Riley herself, for her betrayal. But she knew that she was just a sacrificial minion for Jesse and probably deserved better than that. Besides, she was one of the few people that knew of JDay.

Sarah says she sees a lot of Riley in herself, in her younger years, and knew plenty girls that met up with the wrong people or the wrong crowd. She and her dead friend had a friend that was lost to drugs, and another that was turned out by a pimp. She tells Riley that she had thought about her, and heard she’d try to kill herself, and felt she herself was very much in the same no win situation, but someone was trying suicide her against her will, and she decided she wasn’t going to let that happen.

Where all this leads to is Riley getting a newfound sense of purpose, as Sarah shares with her how she transformed herself from victim to warrior. Jesse decides to do the same, and Sarah becomes her mentor, even to the discomfort of the others. Sarah tells them, “Riley is not the enemy. Skynet is the enemy. Judgement Day is the enemy. Terminators are the enemy. They want to take human lives. We have a Terminator right in front of us, and we treat her better than we do each other. Where there’s life there’s hope, and Riley is still alive. As long as she is, she’s my symbol of what that hope means.”

This strange dysfunctional union really grates on John, who still feels used, now by both “young women” he had some feelings for. Cameron confronts Riley as she is trying to get back with John, explaining she really did like him but Jesse was so good at explaining the value of why they were there and how many people had died and suffered for them to be so and she said they could lose the war the future if she didn’t etc…but JC wasn’t buying it, and Cam felt she could kill Riley now and only SC would get mad.

Really, Cam sees Riley as a threat to her being close to John, and this is also an area of concern. So SC has two “children” now that she has to watch out for Terminators executing them…

SC doesn’t trust Cameron. And Cameron “going bad” was not good. She knows that JC and Cam spend a lot of time talking about things he does not and will not share with her, even after direct questioning of either one of them, and she doesn’t like it. Derek doesn’t like her either, but he’s not very talkative about why. Jesse had a plot to stop this, by sacrificing an innocent girl, but she’s on the run, afraid of Sarah, Derek, and the Terminator she knows they could send out for her. She finally sends word back to Derek that she is willing to turn herself in, as long as they don’t kill her. Her only options are this, or keep running, which means she’s have to try to take JC, SC, Derek and “it” out which is not only highly unlikely, but if she did that’d make her no better than Skynet. Also, she really does love Derek.

His response is bad.

He is hurt, and has lost face with the group. So he goes off doing all sorts of daring missions to make up for it, and this scares SC and Cam that he is going to do something stupid or careless or reckless that will compromise them all. He also is on a one man all out mission to find and kill Jesse.

Discovering this, just as she was about to meet up with him, she barely escapes, and then plans what the hell? I can’t join them, and I can’t beat them, so she goes after Cromartie as a target, to find and “turn” him like the T-888 on the sub, and have her own Terminator. She finally meets up with him and he tells her that he is going to “rule the world” and she agrees this is a good plan: and SHE can help. He is about to kill her, but is curious how she thinks this could be. She tells him that he probably won’t be able to kill all the humans – Skynet couldn’t even after trying for two decades – and even if he did there’d be no one to rule over. He’s going to need some human help and as long as he places her in the cat bird seat as far as humans go that’d be find with her; besides, she can’t go back over to the human side anymore, so this is the only way she’ll be able to have a life. And she not only has information about the Conners’ operations, but she can teach him quite a few things about humans, and also she is a trained military operative and that could be useful. And he was good looking, as far as killer robots go. Begin Jess/Cromarite ship.

They go around the world like Boris Batanoff and Natasha on Bullwinkle Moose cartoon setting up their would be empire, causing major problems for both the Conners ops and CW. They are far more ruthless than SC and co, and truly are the evil dark side of what Terminators can become. Jesse gives in to the evil part, and loses her own soul in the pleasures of this world, and the promise of controlling the next. She teaches him the patterns of conquest, and their favorite mentors are Bonnie and Clyde. They are bold, and Machiavellian (the ends justifies the means).
There you have it. My “take” – just off the top of my head – on an alt universe using the characters James Cameron and Josh Friedman cooked up. I just followed the logic of what should be presented, based upon what we know, and how that would flow in a sci fi action adventure format, as an adult drama.

I’ve done a lot of ranting about JF of late – even started a fan page full of rants on the TSCC wiki – but I also think that should be balanced with some offering of what I think would be a good, compelling, complex, epic, and Terminator-like story, in the time frame setting of TSCC.

Obviously, this is not a final product, and there are holes and gaps aplenty. I would expect very smart writers to sit around and edit and consider and tweak and re-write a good deal of this, but I also expect the final product to be exceptional. Sarah had already done her commando ops leadership basic training in the jungle. After T2, we should se her in the big leagues on a global scale, with very serious challenges confronting her.

That means she should be more than stuck in a couple of safe houses in a year, not doing much planning or making a coordinated effort to go after Skynet or also having a back up plan that makes sense if/when Skynet gets built anyway…Cam and Derek are proof that it does.

Lucas had 100 of the world’s top writers come in to audition for writing jobs for his latest Star Wars project. I don’t think one person can take on Temrinator and do it justice – unless that person was James Cameron – because there is so much too it. So the writing on TSCC should really reflect a multi-faceted approach. Like life, there should be a LOT of things going on that converge on one another, and Sarah at the center of it, controlled chaos architect. JC learns this skill from her, and how to handle aggressive personalities, and handle dangerous situations. He starts to perfect a zen-like calm, and enables him to focus even in a firestorm, something SC has done every sense she learned about JDay and Terminators trying to kill her and her son. This becomes a hallmark Conners quality, and even the toughest of the tough are drawn to them out of respect for this.

Their “legend” grows, kind of like Batman, and their following grows as they impose their will upon the world. Many come not knowing the final outcome, but all are in awe that whatever the Conners and co. do, they are doing it with a higher purpose in mind, almost as if they knew the outcome and could predict the future. Some are action junkies, extremists, or criminals with little to lose and a lot to gain. Some challenge them, but this is only an occasion blip on the larger radar (“do I really need to kill one of you out of hand to prove that I’m in charge?)

Several conspiracies, spies, and threats to them are all around, some immediate, some unfolding, some of higher importance some less. All could be told within the story and we get to understand they character’s development as the stories progress by DOING, not by stalling the story to talk about what’s in their minds. My inspiration for this is the vintage T1 clip of Sarah and Kyle, and the drama and tension that unfolded there, all within 4 minutes. So what I wrote here had that in mind as well as TSCC. Yes, it re-skins TSCC but this is much more in line with what I think TSCC really could have been, if not limited by such notions as you can’t move the story along too fast or you’ll run out of ideas: which is what JF said at WonderCon.

These are just MY ideas. There are many smart fans and good writers who have very good stuff.

I think JF should be tapping those resources and really making an attempt to find and use some of it – especially if he thinks there might not be enough quality content.

If you have a comment to make, please do it on this page, so I can read it. I also ask of you not to EDIT this content, so other’s can read it in it’s original form.


ITEM #6: I don't harbor ill will towrds JF. I just wished you had asked him how he thought the show got into such a mess: 18 to 3.5 mil is quite a drop in only one year...

I'd also like to know why he strayed so far from doing an actual Terminator story; TSCC is really a Terminator BASED story - and there IS a difference.

Not to say he had to be a clone of James Cameron but if you get to run the Boston Celtics, you don't come in andcut all the best players to save salary, play slow down ball with what is left - that has little entertainment value (or capability of winning) and no defense! Couldn't possible hope to maintain a fan base doing that. Also, fans would get irked bc they would wonder you gave you the right to make these changes - from what has worked so well - when you haven't established yourself by even doing THAT first. Noobs don't get that right, just bc they are in charge of the name, esp. when fans know the successful formula probably as well as you do.

Of course we can all speculate about how tough it is, and dude is a good writer, but I think there has been a lot of politics behind this show, just as there was a lot of politics behind T3, which was produced by the same people, and I think there is some sort of agenda behind all of it. I think that is why Cameron, Hamilton and Arnold aren't behind it, involved, or endorse it. Plus, JF acts as if he doesn't WANT them involved.

This, and other stuff, leads me to believe he is not a true fan as we are, this is just an assignment to him. I think McG holds the franchise sacred, and we'll see the dif right off the bat. But Kassar and co own this too, so you'd think they could demand assess and cross promotions.

Maybe JF knows Kassar just put TSCC out there to make some bucks and do some promo for T4 and make a killing. Seems the timing is right to do that. But that is a same, whether by bungling or on purpose: TSCC could have been as big or bigger than Lost, IMO.

Good for you for making the connection. The world is changing with technology, providing more assess. Even the new Prez of the country is feeling that. That means TPTB do have to step their game up, but I think it also means we have to be more than just starry eyed fans and praise them even when we know something is not quite right. They may be big shots, but the consumer is the one that ultimately CALLS the shots.

You let him know that you were watching, and listenting, which means he knows he's not operating IN a vacuum and fans don't care (which I think he may have at some point) and that's the first part of the process.

I said all that to say this. Well done. I think JF has played the show, the franchise and the fans cheap - but I think he isn't doing that anymore. Good for him too, if that IS the case. He certainly has put out a better product lately. We just need him to continue and Fox to agree to let him!

-- Original Message --
From: Zadokite
To: ChrisCoachKKincey
Sent: Mar 24 2009, 12:07 am EDT
Subject: RE: Yo Zad, msg me when you so so I don't miss that, okay?

Hey Chris,
I posted a bit on the thread about Josh Friedman's interview with Wired Magazine.
Our talk was about two minutes long but we did connect on a communication level and I got to get some things off my chest about Action fans of the show :)
He was very concerned with folks getting what he was trying to do and I gave him my support. I also told him that I understood what he was trying to do and thanked him for creating a show about a character I loved for a while now.
Hope you understand,
Zad

-- Original Message --
From: ChrisCoachKKincey
To: Zadokite
Sent: Mar 1 2009, 11:30 pm EDT
Subject: Yo Zad, msg me when you so so I don't miss that, okay?
I'd like to hear. Was at WonderCon event today with Richard. Want to know what Josh had to say!

ITEM #7: I posted a thread - "The Ranters were RIGHT!" and got into a long war with a couple of fans who really were being complete trolls. From that, came several PM that I got permission to share. I've also included my responses.

FYI: there are also a couple of threads started by other fans that I had nothing to do with. I guess that shows a bit of insight into what people feel about this issue.

-- Original Message --
From: TackDriver1956
To: ChrisCoachKKincey
Sent: Apr 7 2009, 7:00 pm EDT
Subject: RE: The Ranters were RIGHT!

Chris, you seem upset. Would you like a "treatment"?
(evil chuckle for the Dollhouse reference). Meat really got you going...unfortunate.
This is supposed to be FUN, for all of us.
Rather than weighing in with a catalog of my own disappointments in the show, I'll just say that you raise a lot of good points. There's an embarrasment of reasons why only the die-hards are hanging on. And also reasons why, as a die-hard T-fan, DID hang on. I just wish my hopes for Season 3 had a better foundation under them.

I am looking forward to reading your page once you have reformatted it. Can I suggest Times New Roman font, as it is easier for (my old) eyes to track a line across a wide page...

ITackDriver1956,

Thanks for taking your time to send me a heartfelt comment. I really appreciate that.

Reading your message last night, I knew I needed to get away from all of this, so my lady stuffed me in the sports car and we drove really realy fast in the rain and wound up out on a country road and made out!

Coming back to this with a clearer perspective, I was going to write you, then decided to blast the punk in the thread were it belongs.

I may be demented but through all the rants I always stay connected to the core issues - so dweebs like meat don't dazzle me with their linguistic bullshit. All he was saying was semantics. We all KNOW the data!

I will try to format today, and will use the times roman font - and a larger font size in yellow, so it's stand out.

I also did a satire fanfic on how T4 impacted TSCC and made TSCC the "big hit" which caused a complete reversal: TSCC became T5 and T6 and Cameron and co. all became big movie stars!

You can find a link to it via my profile page. I got a lot of people that thought this had some very good moments. FYI.

I'm a die hard T-fan, having this being a date movie for my gf of 25 years, so I tend to take a "hard line" on the T canon, shich JF at times didn't seem to adhere to or respect. That irked me, as he was sullying the good name of my second fav hero SC (Bruce Lee is #1, Rilley in Aliens is #3)

I'll drop you a line when the work is done.


ITEM # 8:

WHAT T4 MEANS TO TSCC:

For those of you that love the TV show, T4 effectively killed it. Although JF took the shjow (in the finale) in a direction that only he has any idea where it could go: each character sepearated and trapped ffrom the others, in unfamiliar times and places. Fox did not want to by into having to cater to JF contolling TSCC canon (again) and being in position to manage the show again: he'd flat out lied too much. Cant blame them for that, dude tanked a show that should have been as big as Lost by now...

Yep. we could have had Hamilton, Patrick and Arnold Easter eggs. We could have tapped into a core Terminator fan base and did what we hoped T4 would do for us once and for all: redeem to franchise. We could have had a nod and a tickle of caring that fans got what the wanted and expected AND get the unexpected too.

We could hve tied into T4 easily. Kyle Reese could have had a brother; they could have gotten sepearted, or Derek might have gone to join the Resistance and qualified to become a soldier. Kyle may have looked up to his brother so much that he wanted to follow in his footsteps at any cost.
Skynet was building infilltrator cyborgs. The one in T4 was the first. The also had a T-800 Arnold model. they could have started working on a female that could have become Cameron in later movies.

Sarah was dead after T3. How and why is still a mystery. I don't think she went out with a whimper. The T4 canon now supercedes all others, as it is the freshest. So we get (got) whiney JC who grows up with stud muffins Dr. KAte Brewster. They survive JDay. John becomes a commander in the Resistance. He has many followers but some military types put him on a need to know basis when it is they that don't know the real story. They learn the hard way, and JC becomes leader...

T4 has no time travel (GOOOOD!!!!) but it gives many heavy references and nods to the past. The SC tapes, for one. She made those after T1, but never in TSCC did he toouch those tapes. All he did was bitch that she "gave him up" - his bday being the single worse day of his life...

We could have segwayed into many cross -plot points - all minor ones, but important enough to keep the fires of interest going. Even after T4 release would have had fans streaking over to see what was going on in present day, knowing the tie-ins to the future. Would have been a strategy to get another 3-4 viewers easy and save the show...

I think the success of Terminatror has been that it always seemed to tie back into its earier selves, and made fans feel connected. JF lost his feeling with TSCC, and then ultimately marginalized it by making it an alternate reality version - which was exactly what TSCC fans were dismissing T3 as. But T3 was anchored by a much bigger boat, and T4 managed to not only redeem the franchise, but also redeem T3 as legitimate canon: it must be followed to understand and appreciate the backdrop of which the characters of T4 find themselves.

TSCC was just hitting its stride, when it hit the wall of self destruction. JF proved he could make the show he always should have, by producing several excellent eps towards the end. But he also pushed the self destruct button even before Fox did. I don't think he has anywhere he can take these characters of TSCC now, and Fox knows this too. His policy of no disclosure has worked against them, bc not divulging any significant plot points only proves you don't have any - which any he reveals would have to give away the whole. He has made that big a mess of the TSCC scenario. It can only be explained now by informing the viewer of EVERYTHING that has gone on!

T4 is a great movie. Almost as good as the new Star Trek, but each has flaws. But T4 is like a big killer robot coming to get you: it keeps munching everything in its path and thrilling you as it does so, and makes no excuses for this. It is in your face action, both barrels blazing. It doesn't care if it takes on damage, it just wants to complete its objective. It has to at all cost.

As I write this I realize that this is what we love about Sarah Conner. She is the living embodiment of what I just described! JF rever really "got" that, being sidetracked with his own cancer. So he made Sarah him, when she is a completely different person. TSCC was a completely different show, but making it dark, slow, emo, introverted was as a perverse a corroption as any that could have befallen it. JF gave the TSCC show cancer.
Not that he had to. But tanking Cameron as a character, setting characters against each other when half of earth is set to die in a few years and only the SC crew can stop it; having no intel of any value and not a tactic in the world for trained soldiers in SC, Derek and Cameron. Having a show that for nearly two seasons made very little plot advancements and you had no idea what the main characters were doing or why, is insane, IMO. Yep, I think JF is insane from cancer...brilliant, but insane.

It was insane to isolate TSCC from the rest of the planet: it's too big a machine to handle by itself. You have to steer that sucker very carfully and shart you course always checking you are going in the RIGHT direction: it's own power can get away from you, make it dangerous, bc people expect to much. It gains momentum - or loses it very quickly based upon people's opinions.

To not have a crew of talented, experienced show runners to navigate this tough chore, by keeping track of what is going on, why, and what they can do to change it for the better, is a complete waste IMO. Somebody got to arnold and that let T4 have a cameo that will send ticket sales through the roof. We could had a taste of that (somehow, I don't know...) I do know JF needed marketing a PR people handling things for him like his Terminator brand was a major election campaign. He seemed to ignore all of this.

We see a Marcus Wright, who comes of age and knowledge within 2 hours of the T4 movie. Cameron got two seasons and we don['t know crap about what he is about or what stand she takes on various things. We got teased, then hosed by show runner JF. IMO.

I think we see an end product in T4 that showed McG cared. He cared to find out what was good and bad about the franchise. What people liked and didn't like about it, and what he could and shouldn't use. I think this gave him a solid foundation for laying his own course from the KNOWN into his own unknown world... I think he cared enough to pay his respects to a time honored franchise, without pandering to it. I think he respected what he better do, which was ensure that the viewer understood he knew the "little things" mattered, and this was the only real debt he needed to pay to win them over.
I think JF made fans feel like he was willing to snub them, the franchise, his control of his part of it, the plot, the canon, the characters and lots of other stuff I could rant about but won't here.

In the end, I think JF gave up, a long time ago. TSCC may have become too much work. JF may not have had enough staff to do what needed to be done. BC Terminator is like a big multi-national mega corporation. You can't run that like it was a sidewalk lemonade stand!

So now SC is dead. Chances are, we won't see another version of her, in her ass-kicking prime. I think cam and Derek are gone too. Too bad. It will take time to get over, but at least I know the cause: JF killed them a long time ago, with his blunderings.

Now, I don't see these three being integrated into a T5. T6 plotline.

I hope some on you have some good fan fiction, that can plug the hole in my chest where my heart used to be...BC JC lives. Arnold still lives as a Terminator. Kyle Reese lives. So does Kate Brewster.

But Sarah, Cam, and Derek are gone. I really, really, really miss them.

With them gone means our world is gone. Beyond JDay is all we have left. Those that lived within our times are the first casualities of war. And CW is gone too, lost in a vortex of a time displacement alternate universe. NOt her fault, she should have had better writers ploting how things coulda/shoulda worked out!
Maybe we can band together and pool our talents in this common interest. I think TSCC deserves better than what it got, which was a political shafting both internally and externally. I think Fox hosed TSCC for many reasons, but most of those reasons were probably brought on, crated, or a reaction to what JF was or was not doing. I think JF held sway over his cast and crew knowing he could play the cancer card and none would oppose his wishes: so Nero played a fiddle while Rome burned - to the gound...and yet fans still say they love this guy!

I will stay on point with a project to make a fan TSCC video game, so fans can play/do what they want with the characters, and savor what they will. All of it is bittersweet now, even if the project is successful. It had sooooooooo much potential!

We had a pilot with 18 million viewers. Two years later we are cancelled. We had the most interesting sci fi character on all TV since Mr. Spock. The last season we rearely saw her. We had some of the best written drama on TV, but it chased away - and kept them away by the millions - loyal Terminator fans who supported (and still support) a billion dollar franchise for over 25 years.

You can say what you want about my opinions, but these contradictions will not change. They leave a testimony that only the very blind could not follow. We see the good and the bad, and we all know TSCC got lost, and is lost forever.

I was waiting to see what impact T4 might have. And see its biggest impact was upon me. Bc I sat there watching someing done by Halycon, the same company, and doing it right. And yes, they have compelling and complete characters too. So did TSCC, and we muffed the ball out of bounds.

I hate that looking back - and now being able to see what McG has done with T4 - that my suspicions were right, bc it means TSCC and the main characters which I love, all serve a horrible fate. The fate that JF made, on purpose, over time, and seemingly with malice aforethought. Because the worse susicion I have (based upon what I have seen him do/cause, and his reactions to things) was he had a grudge against Terminator and TSCC. Why this is so I do not know. Just a distinct feeling I have. Many others do too. Can't prove it: won't try. No need. He was never clear with Fox, the fans or his own staff, so I don't expect him to change now.

Item #9: This is a comment response I made on Josh Friedman's blog, where he bitched about losing his job due to the show being cancelled and dropped f-bombs on TV execs, thus effectively burning any bridges they might have regarding bringing TSCC back - with JF involved with it.
Josh, As you know, I've been ranting about TSCC from the very beginning, no need to stop now... I'm going to try to tell you the truth, as best as I can convey it, from my point of view. First point is I love TSCC - with all its flaws - bc I love Sarah conners: EW's #8 all-time butt kicker. She right behind Bruce Lee on my personal list. Second point is TSCC fans tend to wear their hearts on their sleeve; so they will protect YOU if they think TPTB may take a look and it may sway them to give them the show they love back. From the outset I have felt TSCC could be as big - or bigger than Lost. 18 million viewing the pilot may have been an aberration, but Terminator has a 25 year history and has generated over a billion in revenue, so that's not a bad track record to build on. You had a show that clearly had baggage that came with it: no Arnold, no James Cameron, no Linda Hamilton playing Sarah Conners. T3 was a dude by Halycon, for those last two reasons. But it was pretty clear Halycon wanted to cash in, and Arnold needed to become an icon again so he could leverage that to become Calif. Gov. That said, it was clear people wanted more of Sarah and John after their adventures with Uncle Bob, and TSCC promised to give it to them. Unfortunaely - and let's be real: this really seemed to irk you from what I saw how you handled it - people knew the canon and logic of Terminator very, very well. So "Terminator" was what they wanted and expected. No bro, you didn't give them that. Sorry. Yes, you did give them brilliant ideas. Cameron is easily the most interesting sci fi character on TV since Mr. Spock. Derek Reese as Kyle's unknown brother. Casting Shirley Manson as the creepy T-1000. You are a brilliant writer. I think you are absolutely terrible at managing TSCC as a business, and seeing that it gets what it needed AS a buiness in order to succeed. And I think things may have been heading towards cancelation even before the first ep aired. Reading your blog, I can't feel sorry for you. Bc I keep looking at the big picture, and you were in charge of everything. So you either are the source of what went on, or you knew, or you were responsible. No way to get around that my friend. I'm speaking to you now, when everything is over, with a calm resove. I am not trying to blast you, as I understand a bit about what may have influenced such actions (or blunders) by you, and under the circumstances I can live with it. But don't try not to take on the full responsibility for what as happened, as it was not an all of a sudden thing; it was the culmination of a long, slow series of things that could have been easily changed by YOU at any time if you were so aware or inclined. You took two people, on the run from the cops and FBI, who both know and are working to stop Skynet from making JDay a reality and have half the planet's population die on one single day - less than 18 months from now - and you set them at each other's throats. Priorities? You took a pilot and set it in a high school; where Sarah doesn't have access to protect her son - but 300+ other people she doesn't know, does. You had a Terminator rip a gun out of his thigh like RoboCop, and don't see the rip-off cheeziness in this. The arc of the first few eps, BTW really came off as Dawson Creek/90210, so many hardcore fans were wondering WTF? Now then, I need to address something else with you. TSCC was one of the best written show on all of TV, thanks in large part to you. But it was also a mystery as to WHAT you were writing at times. We expected a sci fi action thriller. That's been the history of Terminator: a big bad that keeps coming; you don't have to look for or worry about - it's THERE. You gave su slow, dark, emo introverted eps that seemed like they were written for the LifeStyle Channel. I think this was you own personal indulgence, due to your cancer. I have no guilt in saying this: my father died of cancer (they gave him 3 months and he lasted 3 years without Kemo). I think you got the cast and crew to buy into your pity party and you took advantage of the situation, by doing what YOU wanted rather than doing what was good for the show. Many times TSCC looked nothing like Terminator, and this was so blatant it made many feel that someone was ripping off the Terminator name and just posting their own stories using the Terminator name to have an audience. Sometimes it felt that bad. This is not to say what you wrote wasn't well written; it just didn't sometimes fall into Termintor logic, and thus seemed to insult the intelligence of smart, talented people who hang on every little aspect and nuance of what Terminator means and is about. These are the brilliant undertones that James Cameron created, and at times you seemed to snub your nose at them right in front of OUR faces... Now, to prevent fans from flaming me, let me give you a few broad examples. You took a brilliant show and for most of its 1.5 seasons we knew little about what the plot was about, what tha charaters were doing, or why. You gave us tons of details, but did little to move the plot forward. Terminator has always been something you knew needed little pondering, lack of activity is not part of its DNA. In your defense, you finally gave us the show we always knew you could with the last 6 eps. It was everything we had hoped for and wanted: you got the formula for success right, at last. Personally, I would have thought you would have done this a lot sooner, as it seemed to me your ticket to launch yourself as "the next big thing" in the entertainment business. TSCC could have made your career, becoming your personal gravytrain. But you shot it in the foot - with a full clip. YOu basically sidelined Cameron for most of S2. You made Sarah indecisive, tactiaclly stupid, and sloppy. You made John a whiny, bitch; when he was a streetsmart, savvy brat that could think and act on his feet at the end of T2. No one answered to Sarah - the obvious leader of the resistance in present time. No one asked Cameron what the hell she was doing here or who she was supposed to answer to, AND get her agreement to follow a chain of command - with SC at the top. No one collected any intel. No one planned out and strategies or assignments. No one saw to it that they had resources in goverment agencies, manpower, tools, money, etc - things they'd need to function in finacing and waging a war. No one had a back up plan in case Skynet punched through. No one had any resources if Jday happened and they needed to survive AND fight Skynet on new, less desirable terms. No one from the future ever gave any intel to the Conners as to what the Future War - and life there was about. No, we only got bits and pieces when it seemed to serve a given plot device. That effectively makes those bits of information whores of the writers, and thus less enjoyable for KNOWLEDGEABLE fans who can see the sham. We wanted a full, rich Terminator envirornment, where people lived and died for a reason, not just some backdrop hastily painted and thrown away just as fast when not in use. YOu gave us great support characters, then would kill them off - seemingly almost for spite bc we enjoyed them. We will never know what happened with Fox, WB, Halycon, and you - unless you tell us. I do believe you are not the kind of person to give us a straight answer, so even though I ask for one, I don't expect it to happen. You know you needed a show management guy/gal or team, right? You know you needed someone to oversee and coordinate marketing of the show right? You do know getting a few public kind words from Cameron, Hamilton, Arnold, even Patrick whould have done tons of softening the road for the TV show - even them supporting the concept of having a TV show that shows the life of Sarah and John after T2. That's worth hundreds of millions in PR and advertsing, and would have created the buzz needed to really use Terminator's inherent advantages. But no one used these. Someone should have had that AS job # 1. To not tie into a big blockbuster movie of the same brand name and put out by the same company is just...STUPID. Sorry your ego got in the way to shout McG off your set, but you guys should have had several meetings about how you could do "something" to tie in - even if only "we got Terminator on TV and coming soon in the movies and BOTH are kick ass!" - to throw each other a bone. You BOTH needed it. TSCC was ongoing advertsing for the movie, and the movie gave the TV a "big bad" asset that no other show had - except Star Trek and Star Wars. Why not USE that? I know you may not read this as it is long, but at least I got my issues out in the open with you, and anyone that wants to defend you can do so on these merits: you know exactly where I am coming from. But lets' deal with fans that think I am an advocate of blind, stupid action as the alternative to what TSCC was for most of its life. NO. Don't go there. TSCC ended a wonderful cross range of action, intrigue, surprises, drama, AND character development. For most of TSCC, you tried to develop characters by going "into their heads." Who cares! You learned that we can learn about the charaters - and their insights and motivations - by them DOING stuff - and us watching them doing stuff. The key is they were doing something, not nothing. Because you have stated things that were flat untrue: that you had no idea how/why Fox was marketing the show, when they were showing Cameron in Tomb Raider poses aiming guns at multiple targets in their promo and on their official website, and Sarah loading assault shotguns (like the one she used at the end of T2). Obviously, they did this because YOU pitched it this way. And YOU were the pitchman. TSCC was your concept and you faought for it and got it bought. And Fox paid millions for YOUR iedas, so don't blame them if/when they bailed on their inverstment. Looks to me you changed what they thought they had bought, and they tried several times to handle this with you, but YOU wouldn't "get the message." I don't know if you didn't care, or they pissed you off, or they meddled too much, or cancer had such an effect upon you that it really no longer mattered what happened. But something changed, and it seems you are THE source of it, so you "poor little me" blog doesn't wash IMO. Maybe you were trying to write something better than what James Cameron started with. If so, it wasn't cool to do that using his name, concept and characters. And yes, it seemed like your only interest was to pimp the Terminator. True fans don't do that. You should have stepped back, maybe turned the show over to James Middleton - or anone that could have had veto power over some of your ideas and approaches. Someone with a cooler, less emotion filled head. Someone that could have taken your brilliant ideas and put them in their proper perspective and place. Because at times it seemed your ideas took a higher priority than Terminator and the show itself. Again, I'm not downing you, just telling you what I see (and have been ranting about since Oct of last year) now that it is all over (and doesn't matter anyway. It would be nice for you to nam up and let up know what the real deal was, not just hear you bitch about it as if you didn't have a MAJOR hand in it - for a VERY long time. And for those that think otherwise, I have never tried to suggest how JF should write his show - only that it show rep Terminator and follow the logic that we know to get a product we want and expect - which, you really did do a good job of doing with the last 6 eps. As for the finale, it was brilliant, and a complete wreck. You managed to throw all existing Terminator canon out the window, all of James Cameron's genius, and replace it with your own. You are THE single source for canon regarding TSCC now, and no one knows or can do anything about it unless you say. John is trapped in the future - and no one knows him. No one knows was CW objectives or motivations are. Cam is dead, and no one knows where JH is. Sarah is alone. No one else except you - can speculate as to happen could/should/would happen next. Maybe Fox & TPTB didn't want to deal with you being in charge anymore, as from a business/political standpoint, it seemed you put yourself in an ultimatel position of power: the ONLY way they could deal with TSCC now was to deal with you - and you don't give "spoilers" so there's no way they could get a straight answer from you in terms of what direction you'd take the show in (and why) without doing that, hmmmm? I'm in marketing and PR. You are very good ant deflection - not giving someone a straight answer to something they want from you. You're in show business, so we need not address the fact that you have to have a big ego - and you've been successful in parting people WITH big egos from millions of their dollars - so again, writing a blog to gain pity from people (fans) that may view you as a regualr guy or a victim in this is a sham, and you need not do that again. Fans respect you because you gave them the show. If you really wanted them to love you then you should have given them more of what they wanted - more Summer Glau on camera - with Thomas and/or Lena to play off of - like the "big three" in Star Trek." The formula for character success was right in front of you, but YOU dropped the ball. Fox didn't drop THAT ball. You did. I'd appreciate if you'd address that issue with all these fans that are showing their support for you (when they don't have to) and you pissed in their beer. I'd appreciate you not whining about losing your million dollar job - that should have been a lock for becoming a landslide success - and acknowldege all the hard, passionate work fans did - and are still doing - for the show YOU have now given up on. And maybe you don't understand that these are fans that love a show about people and machine that NEVER give up, and actualy BELIEVE "there is no fate but what we make." Think on that for awhile, and you re-read the blog you wrote telling them to give up and go away. I think it is fair you write a TSCC book like the prequel for T4 and give the fans YOU left hanging - seemingly on purpose - some closure to this fiasco. They LOVE the show and are bleeding from a thousand cuts that they've had to endure and are still. Make it right man, and only YOU can do that. If you;ve given up, then it doesn't matter, does it. Call up some of your writer buddies - hey, several of the TSCC fans on the wiki (like me) would be honored to be involved in the project - and lets crank out whatever you had in your head would happen next. I'm sure its good IF you actually have some material and weren't just using the finale to wreak havoc on the TSCC canon and then bail on it leaving everyone hanging. Is that the legacy you want to be known for? I don't even care, but I do know the fans of TSCC deserve better than that, even if Fox, WB and Halycon don't. Let me put in another way, Mr. Unemplyed guy: you've got a hardcore fanbase of better than 3 million. At $10 a pop for a novel that ain't chump change - and there are very little production cost to deliver it! I'm sure there's at least 3 books worth of material. That's the better part of $10 million: can you live with that? And I bet you we could have a product ready by the time T4 DVD's are ready to go on sale, piggybacking on the advertising they are doing... And in case you've wondering, peer to peer, I've got some hot, page-turning, kick ass fiction I can show you that is ever bit as good as anything that is on the market, so yeah, I think I can talk the talk bc I can walk the walk. And although my show wasn't as big or well financed, it ran for a decade and won every award the network and the industries it dealt with could offer. Get over the pity party, pick yourself up, and continue in the duties you OWE the fans of TSCC to perform, the moment you got them involved with this mess. I'm not hard to find, I'm alwasy on the TSCC wiki. You don't have a job - and I'm not intimidated by your "altitude," so look me up when you stop licking your wounds. LiquidMetal and WikiKat can always find me. It's not like you have something better to do (to hear you tell it). Oh, and IMO, you should have named the show "No Fate," which would have released you from the Terminator expecancies and baggage, and you could have done entirely what you wanted. If you dropped a little Terminator on us from time to time, that would have been a bonus. But when you stepped up to the Terminator plate you stepped into the big leagues, and we expected full on bang for our buck (with no apologies) not watered down impersonations passed off for what we know should and could be. Chris "Coach K" Kincey