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c96
60. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 5:31 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 5:31 AM EDT
I dont get all the Cameron is Johns daughter stuff...

Sky net cant create art or have imagination (excluding Camerons balet) so all the Terminators must be designed built around people they have encountered, captured, killed or seen...

I dont think they would go to the Cameron being Johns daughter angle because that would be pointless in my opinion, and wouldnt there be age issues??? e.g I dont follow it as die hard as some but, for example if John was 16 when they went into the future 7 years (i think?) so age = 23, skynet goes nuts 6 years from then making John 29??? So if he had a daughter who is roughly 18 it would have to be 18 years later that she is killed and turned into a terminator? so he would be 47? and Derek would be 38?

Also her flirting with John wouldnt be right neither because she would know who she is created to look like??? and that would just be weird, then again his mum did have a one night stand with his mate sent back from the future...

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c96
61. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 5:33 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 5:33 AM EDT
If she was supposed to be his daughter, surely he would have programmed her to not under any circumstances flirt with her daddy??? 0  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    

c96
62. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 5:35 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 5:35 AM EDT
Maybe they where just implanted with tracking devices then made to forget so they could be tracked... Or implanted with chips so they could be controlled... Do you find this valuable?    

LiquidMetal
63. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 8:08 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 8:08 AM EDT
Cameron's actions can be explained, if she was once human. The dancing, eating, winking, and her whole persona as a "terminator" do not fit the mold or definition of any terminator to this point. If you step back and look at her with a critical eye, she is really more "human" than "terminator".

Even Arnie in T2 (extended addition) had to "learn" how to smile and even then it was pretty hooky looking. Cameron's is more natural, as if she has done this her entire "life".

Given time travel, and people and terminators jumping through time, kind of negates applying mathematical equations to determine if something could or could not take place. I still say Cameron is John's daughter and her mother is Kathering Brewster. Derek was in love with Cameron in the future, and Cameron was critically injured. Future John saved her "life" as much as he could given the technology.

My hypothesis is based on Cameron's response just before John removed her chip saying "...“this isn’t the first time we’ve done this”.
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dizzie1
dizzie1
64. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 8:27 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 8:27 AM EDT
Very interesting, LiqMetal. Even if your theory is not the case, I wouldn't be surprised one bit to see the writers write it in to the story in season two. That is a great storyline! I hope they see this thread or that you contact the writers somehow. And then I hope they offer you a job! Do you find this valuable?    
dizzie1
dizzie1
65. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 8:40 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 8:40 AM EDT
"Didn't see it posted here yet but to sum it up...Cameron was in the basement. Cameron of the future that is, what she will become, is what those men met down there. The music was left of her memories of the ballet incident. She liked dancing so she continues to dance. The men were being experimented (interviewed) upon but not by skynet, skynet would have killed them as soon as it finished any interogation. They definitely wouldn't be allow to escape, not all of them. When Derrik saw Cameron she was accross the room and he knew immediately that she was a terminator model, That occured after the basement incident. After she had destroyed the terminator at the base she said that "sometimes they go bad, no one knows why". I think the Cameron in the basement might have broken off from skynet (remember in T2 that Arnold's "learning inhibitor" placed on the chip by skynet was removed so he could learn about people) and is doing her own thing in what she considers the best interest of John."
I think that is a very reasonable explanation. You guys are so creative with your various storylines.
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Michelle67D
Michelle67D
66. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 12:41 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 12:41 PM EDT
"Cameron's actions can be explained, if she was once human. The dancing, eating, winking, and her whole persona as a "terminator" do not fit the mold or definition of any terminator to this point. If you step back and look at her with a critical eye, she is really more "human" than "terminator".

Even Arnie in T2 (extended addition) had to "learn" how to smile and even then it was pretty hooky looking. Cameron's is more natural, as if she has done this her entire "life".

Given time travel, and people and terminators jumping through time, kind of negates applying mathematical equations to determine if something could or could not take place. I still say Cameron is John's daughter and her mother is Kathering Brewster. Derek was in love with Cameron in the future, and Cameron was critically injured. Future John saved her "life" as much as he could given the technology.

My hypothesis is based on Cameron's response just before John removed her chip saying "...“this isn’t the first time we’ve done this”."
So are you under the assumption that Derek believes that Skynet is the one that did this to her or that Derek thinks that this is a copy of his ex-girlfriend? Because I think if he knew John had been the one to do this to her -- he'd probably hate John since he hates the machines. May look at her as some sort of abomination or something.

I like the idea and I think that they could get a long run out of Derek wrestling with old feelings concerning her but the fact that she almost seems to flirt with John kinda makes me wonder if it's possible that she could be John's daughter.

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SusanWillow
SusanWillow
67. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 9:27 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 9:27 PM EDT
"So are you under the assumption that Derek believes that Skynet is the one that did this to her or that Derek thinks that this is a copy of his ex-girlfriend? Because I think if he knew John had been the one to do this to her -- he'd probably hate John since he hates the machines. May look at her as some sort of abomination or something.

I like the idea and I think that they could get a long run out of Derek wrestling with old feelings concerning her but the fact that she almost seems to flirt with John kinda makes me wonder if it's possible that she could be John's daughter.

"
Dude if Cameron is John's daughter then there's no way Derek was her boyfriend..... too big of an age difference. Plus how old could she really be by 2027? 17 at the most.
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dukejw
dukejw
68. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 10:55 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 10:55 PM EDT
Furture John knows what he needs for the present John. Cameron was to blend in with the present with John and Sarah. I suspect strongly and deeply that John is the foremost authority on robotics. There is more than one reason skynet wants John Connor dead. He has and always been a major player in the Skynet wars. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    

postal999
69. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 11:10 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 11:10 PM EDT
John Conner is 15 in 1999, so born in 1984. Jump ahead 8 years to 2007 and he’s just turned 16. War is in 2011 when he’s 20 (physical age) or 28 (birthdate age). Cameron is supposed to look like she’s about the same age as John was in high school (so around 15-17). Original date of skynet takeover was in 1997 so previous events of T1 and T2 “delayed” skynet 14 years but didn’t stop it. So to people in the future the leader of the rebels of 2027 is a 43 year old man (if they knew his real birthdate which I doubt) who is really only 35. So the max that his daughter could be would be 35 - (16 (current age)+1 (gestation period)) = 18. Every year past 2007 before John impregnates someone the daughter would be a maximum of 1 year younger and assuming the daughter died in 2027 and not sooner. If he had no children until after the holocost then the max age of the daughter would be 14 years old. No way Cameron represents his daughter I’d think.
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Balderdash
Balderdash
70. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 10 2008, 11:15 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2008, 11:15 PM EDT
i think Cameron is completely robotic. I personally see no indication that she has any human components. I also don't think she is a Terminator I think she was created for a more subtle task - perhaps more of a research project.

Where does Skynet want to go after the war - what are its long term goals? Is Skynet attempting to understand humanity. Perhaps Cameron was sent to 2027 John by Skynet in order to contain the resistance and steer its actions to further the long term goals of Skynet. A deep sleeper agent or perhaps a sacrificial piece to assess if machines and humanity can co-exist after the war or whether the war needs to be prosecuted to the bitter end.

The theories that Cameron is Skynet I think may not be far off the mark - she isn't Skynet in its totality but she may be an Avatar. If she is ultimately Skynets creature why is she protecting John and getting close - I don't think it is to destroy him (better the enemy you know etc...) rather try to convert him to seeing machines in a more positive light and thus getting him to call the war off. Remember Sarah's postscript to Queens Gambit when it talks about the variables in a war and the possibility of truces etc. ... between combatants. We don't now for certain when Cameron originated (She may have used a time machine to go back to 2027) or when the T888's were sent back.

As far as the events in the basement I think the whole thing was a resistance selection centre for future special ops types. Some sort of psychological assessment was carried out.
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dukejw
dukejw
71. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 11 2008, 12:13 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2008, 12:13 AM EDT
"i think Cameron is completely robotic. I personally see no indication that she has any human components. I also don't think she is a Terminator I think she was created for a more subtle task - perhaps more of a research project.

Where does Skynet want to go after the war - what are its long term goals? Is Skynet attempting to understand humanity. Perhaps Cameron was sent to 2027 John by Skynet in order to contain the resistance and steer its actions to further the long term goals of Skynet. A deep sleeper agent or perhaps a sacrificial piece to assess if machines and humanity can co-exist after the war or whether the war needs to be prosecuted to the bitter end.

The theories that Cameron is Skynet I think may not be far off the mark - she isn't Skynet in its totality but she may be an Avatar. If she is ultimately Skynets creature why is she protecting John and getting close - I don't think it is to destroy him (better the enemy you know etc...) rather try to convert him to seeing machines in a more positive light and thus getting him to call the war off. Remember Sarah's postscript to Queens Gambit when it talks about the variables in a war and the possibility of truces etc. ... between combatants. We don't now for certain when Cameron originated (She may have used a time machine to go back to 2027) or when the T888's were sent back.

As far as the events in the basement I think the whole thing was a resistance selection centre for future special ops types. Some sort of psychological assessment was carried out."
First off how did the RF capture Cameron she is bad to the bone. They could not capture her. So that said John made her from off the shelve parts and a few new ones John created. Keep it simple. Cameron is all machine. We have not yet seen what her design capability are.
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c96
72. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 11 2008, 6:41 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2008, 6:41 AM EDT
"John Conner is 15 in 1999, so born in 1984. Jump ahead 8 years to 2007 and he’s just turned 16. War is in 2011 when he’s 20 (physical age) or 28 (birthdate age). Cameron is supposed to look like she’s about the same age as John was in high school (so around 15-17). Original date of skynet takeover was in 1997 so previous events of T1 and T2 “delayed” skynet 14 years but didn’t stop it. So to people in the future the leader of the rebels of 2027 is a 43 year old man (if they knew his real birthdate which I doubt) who is really only 35. So the max that his daughter could be would be 35 - (16 (current age)+1 (gestation period)) = 18. Every year past 2007 before John impregnates someone the daughter would be a maximum of 1 year younger and assuming the daughter died in 2027 and not sooner. If he had no children until after the holocost then the max age of the daughter would be 14 years old. No way Cameron represents his daughter I’d think.
"
Thank you, that what I was trying to get at but I didnt know all the dates...

Even with Time travel, its not really likely John is going to travel back in time, have a child then go forward till she is older, watch her die then remake her... Also seems a little pointless making her Johns child, more plausable she could be a work mate, girlfriend of John, Dereks GF, Johns mums mind, or just a bog standard robot... Dont get how a story line with her being his daughter would really 1, make any sense, 2 achieve anything...

If ur daughter dies, you wouldnt wait till your mortal enemy recreates her or recreate her yourself, then reprogramme her, then send her back in time as a teenager to save ur life, without at least telling her not to flirt with you in the past, lol
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Balderdash
Balderdash
73. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 11 2008, 7:08 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2008, 7:08 AM EDT
"First off how did the RF capture Cameron she is bad to the bone. They could not capture her. So that said John made her from off the shelve parts and a few new ones John created. Keep it simple. Cameron is all machine. We have not yet seen what her design capability are. "
No she isn't bad to the bone my point was she may have been a plant, and her original programming may have been centred around gaining the trust of the resistance. She has been reprogrammed (as stated) perhaps she doesn't have the same -revert to kill humans type fail safe that other T's exhibit from time to time. If a few Skynet assets are lost in pursuit of a longer term goal so be it.
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Michelle67D
Michelle67D
74. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 11 2008, 9:13 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2008, 9:13 AM EDT
"Dude if Cameron is John's daughter then there's no way Derek was her boyfriend..... too big of an age difference. Plus how old could she really be by 2027? 17 at the most. "
Actually what I was saying was that her flirting with John made me think that she couldn't be John's daughter. Maybe I didn't word it right.

Anyway I thought it would make an interesting storyline -- not necessarily the way it will go down but interesting none the less.

As for the age difference I don't think that in the future people may be all that concerned with age difference if there isn't a lot of people left alive to choose from.

I actually agree with Balderdash when it actually comes to the show on what Cameron is - I think she's probably completely robotic -- no human parts.I just think it's interesting to look at other theories especially during hiatus.
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LiquidMetal
75. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 11 2008, 9:31 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2008, 9:31 AM EDT
"Actually what I was saying was that her flirting with John made me think that she couldn't be John's daughter. Maybe I didn't word it right.

Anyway I thought it would make an interesting storyline -- not necessarily the way it will go down but interesting none the less.

As for the age difference I don't think that in the future people may be all that concerned with age difference if there isn't a lot of people left alive to choose from.

I actually agree with Balderdash when it actually comes to the show on what Cameron is - I think she's probably completely robotic -- no human parts.I just think it's interesting to look at other theories especially during hiatus."
It could be flirting or it could be just an acknowledgment or confirmation. I have winked at people before that indicated agreement or understanding. More or less like "I get it" or "I understand". A wink can also mean "trust me".
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Michelle67D
Michelle67D
76. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 11 2008, 9:35 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2008, 9:35 AM EDT
"It could be flirting or it could be just an acknowledgment or confirmation. I have winked at people before that indicated agreement or understanding. More or less like "I get it" or "I understand". A wink can also mean "trust me". "
Actually I saw more flirting in the eating of the chip than in the wink. Of course that might have just been Summer -- she and Dekker have a lot of on screen chemistry.
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john121984
john121984
77. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 11 2008, 10:00 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2008, 10:00 AM EDT
If John could teach a terminator what it means to be human that would really mess with skynet. That might be part of his plan. Do you find this valuable?    
CoffeeHeidi
CoffeeHeidi
78. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 11 2008, 1:46 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2008, 1:46 PM EDT
"For some reason is till think it was Cameron down there, and I base this all on the reactions that Derek had to her. His first was after they returned and he saw her in teh bunker, if she was a newer advanced model I think it's safe to say not many people had seen her yet. But he reconized her as metal (again, I coul dbe wrong). 2) how he reacted to her in the present. I mean, I totally understand him having an adverse reaction to all things terminator, but you normally have a stronger reaction to someone that has cause you true bodily harm. Like when a woman comes face to face with the man who raped her. Yeah, she's going to be weary of all men from the day that the assult happened, but when face to face with the one who did it, she would act out more. That's how Derek reacts with Cameron. Plus when he hears the music as she dances in the bedroom, the look on his face is pure dusgust, there is no awe there only hate and disbelief that a machine could mimic a human dance so well, flawless. "
I'm in the same camp. Some form of s*xual torture happened in that room and with the Cameron we know in the present. In Demon Hand, Derek says, "Look John, a lot can happen to a person inside four walls. It screws with your head. Makes you do things you never thought you'd do."

In Vick's Chip we have these lines:
Derek, "She can't be trusted. No matter how she acts on the outside, we have no idea what's going on in there."
Derek, "Because they're twisted. That's why."

Cameron to John, "That was effective, what he did when he touched her lips."
John, "Effective?"
Cameron, "I could see that she liked that."

What Cameron said is creepy, unbelievably creepy, and more than "just making conversation."

The look on Derek's face when he sees Cameron dance is one of pure horror and anguish at what he was put through. I agree with another poster who talked of why Derek hasn't told John or Sarah. He doesn't know them well enough to trust them. He's embarrassed about what happened. And would they believe him? Terminators kill, yes, but molestation, rape? That one would be hard for them to swallow because like he's said, "You don't know them like I do."
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AverageJo
AverageJo
79. RE: What do you think happened in the basement below?
Apr 11 2008, 2:05 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2008, 2:05 PM EDT
This thread keeps coming back, everyone is mesmerized by what happened down there.

OK, it's fun to speculate, but could the "Cameron down there" theorists clarify one point? By "Cameron" do they mean the same individual that's with Sarah and John now, or are they suggesting that "Basement Cameron" is just one of the many Cameron models (whatever that # is) - that is, NOT the time-jumping Cameron.
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