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Discussion: A weighty problemReported This is a featured thread

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IvyMike
IvyMike
100. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 5:36 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 5:36 PM EST
"And my points are:

1)The Turk is wrong. Doesn't matter what he says, his extimations are not scientifically correct.

2)The hyperalloy they are talking is Ti based for their own admission, therefore its density should variate in the specs of Ti alloys we know. BTW Coltan is much denser than Titanium and larger is its percentage in the melt heavier is the alloy. I agree that it's a plot device to accept how it is."
Please define "hyperalloy".
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Caesis
Caesis
101. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 5:40 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 5:40 PM EST
"Please define "hyperalloy"."
http://wordie.org/words/hyperalloy%20combat%20chassie
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IvyMike
IvyMike
102. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 5:46 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 5:46 PM EST
"Metal is metal, if it's porous, it's a flaw, that usually happens when in the melt there is some gas. When the metal is cooling, the gas becomes vapourus and therefore you have porosity like in some prototypes we were developing at work.

Of course, the knuckles of cast iron that were porous failed, and we had to complain to the supplier.

Just to say."
This is what I mean by lack of imagination. Skynet could be synthesising these materials on a nano or even molecular scale. A hyperalloy need not have the slightest resemblance to any material any of us have ever encountered.

Of course, it may never be possible to develop such a material, ultimately the Laws of Physics may prevent this, but to my admittedly lay knowledge super strong, super light materials are far more plausible than time travel as depicted in the Tverse.

Hyperalloy is not completely miraculous; it can be melted with thermite and damaged or destroyed by conventional weapons, the writers are not portraying it as something totally ridiculous like Unobtanium.
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
103. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 5:48 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 5:50 PM EST
"Please define "hyperalloy"."
An alloy with mechanical characteristics superior to superalloys, of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superalloy

Superalloys are usually nickel based and they have superior performance in creep, heat resistance and fatigue. An hyperalloy would be a good definition for an alloy who has these characteristics combined to light weight, therefore I would define a Ti-based alloy with similar characteristics to...to say inconel a hyperalloy.
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IvyMike
IvyMike
104. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 5:52 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 5:52 PM EST
"An alloy with mechanical characteristics superior to superalloys, of course."
And how do you make a hyperalloy?
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
105. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 5:54 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 5:54 PM EST
"This is what I mean by lack of imagination. Skynet could be synthesising these materials on a nano or even molecular scale. A hyperalloy need not have the slightest resemblance to any material any of us have ever encountered.

Of course, it may never be possible to develop such a material, ultimately the Laws of Physics may prevent this, but to my admittedly lay knowledge super strong, super light materials are far more plausible than time travel as depicted in the Tverse.

Hyperalloy is not completely miraculous; it can be melted with thermite and damaged or destroyed by conventional weapons, the writers are not portraying it as something totally ridiculous like Unobtanium."
This is not lack of imagination, it's knowledge of engineering and metallurgy. It's different, if you don't see the difference, sorry I can't help you.

Oh, ANY alloys can be melted, for the simple reason that to combine different elements you have to melt them, that's the definition of "alloy".

For the super light characteristics, I'm fine until they don't become unrealistic, and a hyperalloy whose density is 110% the one of...bones would make any engineer and metallurgist laugh.
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IvyMike
IvyMike
106. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 5:56 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 5:56 PM EST
"This is not lack of imagination, it's knowledge of engineering and metallurgy. It's different, if you don't see the difference, sorry I can't help you.

Oh, ANY alloys can be melted, for the simple reason that to combine different elements you have to melt them, that's the definition of "alloy".

For the super light characteristics, I'm fine until they don't become unrealistic, and a hyperalloy whose density is 110% the one of...bones would make any engineer and metallurgist laugh."
And if you can't see the difference between a work of fiction and a thesis on metallurgy, sorry I can't help you.
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
107. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 5:58 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 5:58 PM EST
"And how do you make a hyperalloy?"
Research and development perhaps? With PhDs in metallurgy? :P

Look, Titanium started to be used industrially just after 1947, and even until recently it was extremely expensive to produce, then in Cambridge people like my ex boss developed a new process to refine it. During the cold war, US and SSSR were stockpiling this metal like...actually the writers showed us in Heavy metal. All the scientific paperwork I had access before the 80s were from military R&D centers, still we don't have complete phase diagrams of this material, and its forging and casting is EXTREMELY complicated, that's the reason why RR was founding my grant to develop a finite element model for isothermal forging.

It's research, baby!
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IvyMike
IvyMike
108. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 6:02 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 6:02 PM EST
"Research and development perhaps? With PhDs in metallurgy? :P

Look, Titanium started to be used industrially just after 1947, and even until recently it was extremely expensive to produce, then in Cambridge people like my ex boss developed a new process to refine it. During the cold war, US and SSSR were stockpiling this metal like...actually the writers showed us in Heavy metal. All the scientific paperwork I had access before the 80s were from military R&D centers, still we don't have complete phase diagrams of this material, and its forging and casting is EXTREMELY complicated, that's the reason why RR was founding my grant to develop a finite element model for isothermal forging.

It's research, baby!"
Fascinating I'm sure, but you haven't answered my question. How is hyperalloy manufactured? What is its composition? Why is it different from superalloy?

There are no answers to these questions because hyperalloy is fictional.
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
109. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 6:13 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 6:13 PM EST
"Fascinating I'm sure, but you haven't answered my question. How is hyperalloy manufactured? What is its composition? Why is it different from superalloy?

There are no answers to these questions because hyperalloy is fictional."
The difference betwen good fictional and bad fictional in sci-fi is given by its level of vero-simility: closer a opera of sci-fi is to real science, better it is. That's the definition of SCIENCE-FICTION, you can have higher of lower percentage of fiction, but you need to have SCIENCE.

Now, if somebody invents in a sci-fi book or movie a hyperalloy with realistic charactereistics, it's good sci-fi, if he invents something clearly impossible, it's not. You should read a good from a physician, entitled "The Physics of Star Trek", it's pretty interesting about it.

For your accusation of lack of imagination, for the record I'm writing a book, following these concepts, aka creating vero-simile technology without deux ex machina, hoping to create something that other people may consider "good" sci-fi. If he wasn't dead, you could have aske Arthur Clarke, who was real man of science and wrote good sci-fi.
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IvyMike
IvyMike
110. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 6:43 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 6:43 PM EST
"The difference betwen good fictional and bad fictional in sci-fi is given by its level of vero-simility: closer a opera of sci-fi is to real science, better it is. That's the definition of SCIENCE-FICTION, you can have higher of lower percentage of fiction, but you need to have SCIENCE.

Now, if somebody invents in a sci-fi book or movie a hyperalloy with realistic charactereistics, it's good sci-fi, if he invents something clearly impossible, it's not. You should read a good from a physician, entitled "The Physics of Star Trek", it's pretty interesting about it.

For your accusation of lack of imagination, for the record I'm writing a book, following these concepts, aka creating vero-simile technology without deux ex machina, hoping to create something that other people may consider "good" sci-fi. If he wasn't dead, you could have aske Arthur Clarke, who was real man of science and wrote good sci-fi."
Well here we have to part ways. You are labelling Terminator as science fiction, giving your definition of good science fiction, and then saying the show does not meet your definition. Personally I see Terminator as not being "hard" SF, although it draws heavily from SF.

IMO James Cameron was more interested in stories exploring humanity's relationship with technology, rather than strictly plausible extrapolations of science and technology themselves, and I think Josh Friedman and his team are endeavouring to follow in Mr Cameron's footsteps.
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DavidB1111
111. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 20 2009, 4:19 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 20 2009, 4:19 PM EST
"Well here we have to part ways. You are labelling Terminator as science fiction, giving your definition of good science fiction, and then saying the show does not meet your definition. Personally I see Terminator as not being "hard" SF, although it draws heavily from SF.

IMO James Cameron was more interested in stories exploring humanity's relationship with technology, rather than strictly plausible extrapolations of science and technology themselves, and I think Josh Friedman and his team are endeavouring to follow in Mr Cameron's footsteps."
Lol, wut? Ivy, he makes a good point, and where does he claim that Terminator isn't a good Science Fiction show? Seriously, where? I've read his post 4 times, and I don't see it.

Bottom line, they are made out of a Hyper-alloy Combat Chasis. I guess It's a Super-super-alloy. So, what is your problem again now?

The fact that it's a show, and that there should be a willing suspension of disbelief? Now, I'll grant you that is true, but come on now, you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Either that, or I'm going crazy.

I don't think Cuthbert is fighting you tooth and nail here. :)
He's just stating that Hyper-alloy is very dense. :) Or at the very least, much more dense that Steel and lead.
So again, what is the problem here? It's a show, and what?
Also, Time Travel is much more possible than you think. Whether it's as simple as this show's, or it's much more complicated. But no, it doesn't require going past the speed of light.
You would more than likely cease to exist. This doesn't equal time-travel, and even Einstein himself would say that Time Travel could be done in a different way.
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IvyMike
IvyMike
112. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 20 2009, 5:15 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 20 2009, 5:15 PM EST
"Lol, wut? Ivy, he makes a good point, and where does he claim that Terminator isn't a good Science Fiction show? Seriously, where? I've read his post 4 times, and I don't see it.
"
"Now, if somebody invents in a sci-fi book or movie a hyperalloy with realistic charactereistics, it's good sci-fi, if he invents something clearly impossible, it's not."

Is that clear enough for you?

Really, this is pointless. Hyperalloy is hardly less plausible than time travel. CuthbertAllgood is simply showing off how much more he knows about metallurgy than the writers of a TV show. it's pathetic.
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Keirasplace
113. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 20 2009, 5:35 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 20 2009, 5:35 PM EST
Time travel while theoreticallly possible, is very very very far from what's portrayed here or in any show or film. Actually moving back a physical being of any size is highly improbable.

The most likely breakthrough would be in using the quantum properties of matter to tunnel information backwards (this is linked to the probability function of the subatomic particles).

Then, how do you receive this very minute information, if it even survives the chaotic forces at that level (supercooling in the best vacuum ever would be needed for sure). Also, how far back can you send the info, a microsecond, a second, more...

Then, if this head trip concept works, once data is received, sequence of bits, you could reconsttute whatever was on the other side. Sending alerts back would probably be the most likely use (if this ever come to be built).

I'm guessing that this won't happen in my lifetime if ever.

As for hyperalloys, the term hyper is from my perspective totaly meaningless.
Its an alloy, of a new kind, that has unique physical properties, nothing more (maybe its like the transparent aluminium of Star Trek, IV (the voyage home) :-).
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
114. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 20 2009, 6:55 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 20 2009, 6:55 PM EST
""Now, if somebody invents in a sci-fi book or movie a hyperalloy with realistic charactereistics, it's good sci-fi, if he invents something clearly impossible, it's not."

Is that clear enough for you?

Really, this is pointless. Hyperalloy is hardly less plausible than time travel. CuthbertAllgood is simply showing off how much more he knows about metallurgy than the writers of a TV show. it's pathetic."
The point is that if a sci-fi opera spends time describing technology this technology has to be vero-simile. It's not my definition but the definition of sci-fi, science AND fiction together, since the beginning.

In this case, if the writers tell me that a machine made of titanium alloys weight 10% more than a human I suggest him to start to work on research and documentantion. It's the same error that you can find in a historic movie about civil war whne Lee in 1866 didn't surrender. Would you call that movie a good historic movie?
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kingsteve
kingsteve
115. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 20 2009, 7:10 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 20 2009, 7:10 PM EST
"The point is that if a sci-fi opera spends time describing technology this technology has to be vero-simile. It's not my definition but the definition of sci-fi, science AND fiction together, since the beginning.

In this case, if the writers tell me that a machine made of titanium alloys weight 10% more than a human I suggest him to start to work on research and documentantion. It's the same error that you can find in a historic movie about civil war whne Lee in 1866 didn't surrender. Would you call that movie a good historic movie?"
I'd disagree there; getting something like Cameron's weight wrong would make people sit up and think for a moment, but wouldn't greatly harm an episode. I think the fiction part, getting good characters, plots, etc is more important than the science part. Not to say that that's not important.

But remember, this is a show where we have an AI that takes over the world, time travel, machines that can imitate humans, and a Terminator (Cameron) that may be experiencing some kind of emotions of her own; not to mention another Terminator made of liquid metal. Compared to these things, I don't think how realistic the weight of a Terminator is will be that important or really stand out that much.

I still say Cameron's around 200lbs, makes her much heavier than she would be if she were human, but not stupidly so (as in, she won't break the floor by walking on it). Does that sound more realistic?
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DavidB1111
116. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 20 2009, 7:19 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 20 2009, 7:22 PM EST
""Now, if somebody invents in a sci-fi book or movie a hyperalloy with realistic charactereistics, it's good sci-fi, if he invents something clearly impossible, it's not."

Is that clear enough for you?

Really, this is pointless. Hyperalloy is hardly less plausible than time travel. CuthbertAllgood is simply showing off how much more he knows about metallurgy than the writers of a TV show. it's pathetic."
Um, I don't see how that still says he's calling the show bad. He's just stating a sentence. Now, if he said. "Terminator is not a show that should be called science fiction, then your point would be realized. At this moment, I have no clue...

He doesn't come off as arrogant to me. So, relax a little will you. No need to be so uptight.
Also,
"In this case, if the writers tell me that a machine made of titanium alloys weight 10% more than a human I suggest him to start to work on research and documentantion."
I agree with this point, any way you slice it, Cameron isn't that light. She should more than likely weigh more than 120 pounds.

So, really ,again, I don't see how that quote you quoted begins to tell you he says the show isn't sci-fi. Sorry,

Also, Kiera, you're throwing way too many technical terms around for anyone here. :). PLus, you're talking about Quantum Teleportation, or Tunneling.

Time Travel while being difficult should be easier than messing around with something that can cause the collapsing of the Quantum Vacuum, which then collapses the Universe.

Besides, as complicated as Time Travel is, it's still nothing compared to collapsing a black hole or building a Dyson Sphere. :)
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ZealousEnder
ZealousEnder
117. RE: A weighty problem
Apr 18 2009, 12:31 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 18 2009, 12:31 AM EDT
the awser is that Cameron is a Cylon :-)
Sorry I had to do it...anybody who saw the last EP of BSG would understand.
TSCC is the best show around.
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