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Discussion: A weighty problemReported This is a featured thread

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Zadokite
Zadokite
20. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 6:12 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 6:12 AM EST
"Okay I talked about this in a post a few months ago and I finely have the answer. Taking facts from the only source I have, I re-watched all the terminator movies and in the making of T3 in the bathroom scenes they finely answered my question a T3 Movie Terminator weighs 2000 pounds, which fills in a lot of the issues I have had with the science behind the TV and Movie when two terminators fight buildings shake vans rocks back and forth and walls get destroyed, so Sarah could not have possibility have lifted Cameron into that chair when the trapped safe caused her to shut down and reboot. Most of the cars they drive around in wouldn’t carry her weight which goes to prove Cameron is an advanced proto-type, she is almost as strong as a terminator but with a lot less mass, I would guess Cameron weighs on the order of 500 pounds. I know it’s a TV show and I know the laws of Physics don’t apply to TV and Movies but it’s a pet peeve of mine when holly weird shifts gears mid stream on physics issues. I still want to know why Skynet would design a terminator that can not only eat but one that would look like a teen girl, I have a feeling if SCC gets a next season we will find out Skynet didn’t build her but John did, future john already knows the outcome because to him it has already happened, he is just filling in the blanks by sending back the right people and equipment at the right times. (Think Big John is a freak and he built himself a toy to play with then with the time portal he sent it to him self as a present) Cameron isn’t there to help john stop Skynet because that can’t happen she is there is give john the training and knowledge to become the leader he needs to be.

IMHO

"
I'm curious Bel,

Where did u get the idea that Arnold's term weighed 2000 lbs?

I've handled this issue about five different times in different forums. It's usually a misunderstanding in T3 where a paramedic tries to lift an unconscious (?) Arnold and states a euphamistic phrase, "God, this guy weighs a ton!"

A Euphamisum is a word or phrase that has a more contextual meaning. A fire fighter is required to be able drag 150 lbs. to safety. But, if a mother in a park lifts her child and states, "Geez lil Johnny, you weigh a ton!" You're not gonna say the little boy weighs 2,000 lbs.

The Paramedic was basically stating that Arnold's terminator was heavier than expected and he couldn't lift him. It doesn't mean the terminator weighed 2000 pounds at all. I've seen many folks make this communication mistake in their assessment of contextual communication. It's easy to do.

I hope this helps you understand. Picking film apart is easy, because it's a representation of something rather than something that is real. Don't be too nitpicky and you'll enjoy film much more.

Hope that helps:)

Zad
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GregTheVirus
GregTheVirus
21. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:24 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:29 AM EST
I find the 20% estimation very difficult to believe (the link was to a forum - do we know the poster was a writer?). Consider human muscle is approximately 3 times more dense than fat. It's POSSIBLE, two individuals can be about 20% in density difference. All of this is well within acceptable limits for SWIMMING. Cameron has admitted - she cannot swim. And considering her strength and speed (ability to stroke much more than a human), she must be considerably more dense (she IS made of metal...).

Consider how she tosses humans around. This creates a physics problem (torque and momentum) if she weighed only 140 pounds (she would move quite a bit too by lunging a 200 pound human - strength is irrelevant regarding momentum, only mass and opposing velocities matter).

Consider her fights with Cromartie/Vick, IF she weighed 140 pounds, either could throw Cameron further than the length of a football field, likewise with Cammie throwing them. Termi's simply have too much strength. It creates many issues if you go by a "light termi" model. Having a REASONABLE weight of at least a few hundred pounds solves that issue. Plus, they'd still move the same, due to how strong they are (Cam would still seem graceful).

Lastly, consider her leverage (or lack thereof) in lifting Eric out of the wheelchair. There's no way you lift like that, only weighing 140 (again, this is torque - independent of strength). Facing the facts, no one will be carrying our beloved cyborg off the dance floor of the prom. She weighs too much. Making her too light will create continuity issues, which, regarding weight arguments, is starting to become a pet peeve for me.

I agree with earlier estimates, in order to maintain a REASONABLE (taking evidence from the show into account, and general physics) she must weigh at LEAST 250 pounds, which is well within reason for not being spotted and still being able to move around.
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Crazy_Jane
Crazy_Jane
22. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:38 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:38 AM EST
i think it's all just not particularly consistent. having them weight like 500lbs upwards is cool for when they need to punch through walls or knock the heck out of each other, but also useless for infiltration. vick's had a partner that hadn't rumbled he was a term, not that it;s the first thing someone who didn;t know about them would think, but i think she would have realised once they got in the sack that he was several times his appropriate weight. Do you find this valuable?    

Gusar
23. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:50 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:54 AM EST
GregTheVirus, everything you said is fine and all, so I just have three words for you: suspension of disbelief. If you can do it for time travel, you can do it for this.

Edit: (off-topic: How cool is it that we can to that now? :)
Those messages come from Zack Stentz, one of the writers. He posts here (and at some other forums) as TheTurk.
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JMHthe3rd
JMHthe3rd
24. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 8:10 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 8:10 AM EST
"I agree with earlier estimates, in order to maintain a REASONABLE (taking evidence from the show into account, and general physics) she must weigh at LEAST 250 pounds, which is well within reason for not being spotted and still being able to move around."
For my fic I decided to set her weight at 225lbs, and that's probably on the low end of the scale of plausibility.

I mean, she can survive being sandwiched between two Mac trucks and not be damaged . . . I can't see a feather-weight metal, even futuristic, being able to withstand that kind of punishment.
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Xynoxx
25. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 9:08 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 9:14 AM EST
" know it’s a TV show and I know the laws of Physics don’t apply to TV and Movies but it’s a pet peeve of mine when holly weird shifts gears mid stream on physics issues"

Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade but guys, we've had these discussions before. As you said, it IS a TV show. It is fiction and in fiction, while one keeps as much as possible to reality to make a story believable, scifi streaks into its own universe.

The Cameron we see is clearly not much heavier than a female of her general size and weight.. Her endo is lightweight, and very advanced. The fact that she punches way above her perceived weight, is not unrealistic. Some fighter aircraft are "lightweights" against contemporary aircraft; their engines, with sometimes TTW ratio of 2 plus to 1, makes them stand on their tails and accelerate UPWARDS. Thus, Force and speed can generate an impact that one would not expect from a "lightweight". As has been posted upthread, she used Vick's weight against him. Very light people from Asia, for example, can own a bruiser the size and weight of a fully tooled up footballer (American). Our guys play "unarmoured", even at rugby)

You could snap a candle easily, for another example; but driven with sufficient force, it will penetrate steel. Kinetic energy missiles will penetrate the armour of a tank.

I know some people like to pick at such things in shows: but does it really matter? Are there people who calculate the tensile strength of Spidey's web strands? Or the specifics of Superman's "invulnerability"? Or the true workings of Batman's toys?

There has to be some realism, of course. But it's a story. A fairy tale. From the Greek myths to our current myths and within reason, more suspension of disbelief and more enjoyment of the fare, should be the order of the day
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Brovane
Brovane
26. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 9:18 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 9:18 AM EST
"Okay I talked about this in a post a few months ago and I finely have the answer. Taking facts from the only source I have, I re-watched all the terminator movies and in the making of T3 in the bathroom scenes they finely answered my question a T3 Movie Terminator weighs 2000 pounds, which fills in a lot of the issues I have had with the science behind the TV and Movie when two terminators fight buildings shake vans rocks back and forth and walls get destroyed, so Sarah could not have possibility have lifted Cameron into that chair when the trapped safe caused her to shut down and reboot. Most of the cars they drive around in wouldn’t carry her weight which goes to prove Cameron is an advanced proto-type, she is almost as strong as a terminator but with a lot less mass, I would guess Cameron weighs on the order of 500 pounds. I know it’s a TV show and I know the laws of Physics don’t apply to TV and Movies but it’s a pet peeve of mine when holly weird shifts gears mid stream on physics issues. I still want to know why Skynet would design a terminator that can not only eat but one that would look like a teen girl, I have a feeling if SCC gets a next season we will find out Skynet didn’t build her but John did, future john already knows the outcome because to him it has already happened, he is just filling in the blanks by sending back the right people and equipment at the right times. (Think Big John is a freak and he built himself a toy to play with then with the time portal he sent it to him self as a present) Cameron isn’t there to help john stop Skynet because that can’t happen she is there is give john the training and knowledge to become the leader he needs to be.

IMHO

"
From this Terminator wiki - http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/T-850 the 850 series Terminator in T3 weighs around 200kg so I am thinking that somebody misspoke when they indicated behind the scenes in T3 that one would weight 1,000kg. A weight of 200kg makes a lot more sense. The Terminator is heavy enough with the extra mass to go through walls etc but not so heavy that sitting in a car would break it.
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GregTheVirus
GregTheVirus
27. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 3:40 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 3:41 PM EST
"GregTheVirus, everything you said is fine and all, so I just have three words for you: suspension of disbelief. If you can do it for time travel, you can do it for this."
I understand your argument, but there's a difference, albeit slightly nit-picky. The time travel, of course, is "sci-fi", and that's fine and dandy, as there's a defined apparatus to bend the physics, space-time, etc. to allow such an event to occur. So, we assume time travel is possible. Outside of that, all the rules of physics still apply.

It's not necessarily the notion that it's not physically possible to create a 120 pound terminator, but it doesn't fit the continuity of the story, how they move and fight (brute force fighting - ex. walls are nothing to them, and even as strong as they are, they can't throw other terminators over 100 yards), references, John and Sarah's trouble picking her up, etc. That's my biggest quip with the notion she's a light-weight (in human terms).

I concede, I've discussed through and through time travel, and in the sci-fi genre, we all must be willing to accept some things as is - hence the "fiction." If the writers came out and said what she weighed, I'd accept that. In the mean time, to me, it's illogical and lacking a lot of evidence to assume she's anywhere in the sub 150 range.

Plus guys, you should consider just how well a 400 pound Vick would move. Remember how strong he is (and he was booking it after that truck w/Derek in it). It's not about raw weight, rather, how strong are you for your weight (power-to-weight ratio). This would make Vick seem like a "light" 400 pounds, if that makes sense. It wouldn't be as easy as you'd think for his wife to notice that (maybe if he laid in bed, but that's about it).
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
28. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 3:54 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 3:54 PM EST
"I'm not really sure how they figure Arnold would have weighed a ton in T3. That's just ridiculous. Floors would crack under his feet. He wouldn't be able to sit in a car or operate a motorcycle.

In the show, Cameron is made from coltan. In real life, coltan is used for making things like electronics capacitors. So it's use in the show is purely fictional in that they simply borrowed the name to make it sound like some futuristic metal alloy. So it can be whatever it wants. I would think lightweight would be a characteristic."
Actually it was just an hyperbole of the firefighter: he meant to say that it weighted a lot, but not a "ton".

Months ago I calculated Cameron's weight from a engineering point of view, supposing that half of her volume was occupied by a Ti alloy (lighter than steel) and half from the flesh...the result was around 110 kg and I think it's believable.
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
29. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 3:55 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 3:55 PM EST
"That's a behind the scenes photo, it has nothing to do with Cameron. That said, here's what the writers have to say about Terminator weight: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=127803 -> short summary: they weight up to 20% more than a human of the same size.

@jhowell928s: It's possible to use coltan as alloy. From wikipedia about tantalum (in TSCC, coltan is processed tantalum niobium):
"Tantalum is also used to produce a variety of alloys that have high melting points, are strong and have good ductility. Alloyed with other metals, it is also used in making carbide tools for metalworking equipment and in the production of superalloys for jet engine components, chemical process equipment, nuclear reactors, and missile parts."

While making a whole endoskeleton might be a stretch in today's time, we're talking here about machines from 2027."
Already discussed it. Tantalium and niobium weight much more than Titanium, she should weight more than my extimations.

I don't buy it! For 2027, I seriously dubt that the density of metals will change.
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GregTheVirus
GregTheVirus
30. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 4:04 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 4:04 PM EST
"I don't buy it! For 2027, I seriously dubt that the density of metals will change."
Very very good point. They may make an alloy that's less dense, more durable, etc., but not THAT much. The technology may change, but the periodic table will remain constant.
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notty22
notty22
31. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 4:35 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 4:35 PM EST
Here is a very informative video about coltan, and how it being found naturally in a part of Africa has caused distatrous results. Africa was mentioned by Weaver in the last episode.
Congo’s Bloody Coltan
http://www.sfbayview.com/2008/in-focus-congos-bloody-coltan/

I have a longer post where I mention that coltan is actually a ore that when used in the terminators endosekeleton is actually refined in to titanium to give that metal stronger heat properties.
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
32. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 4:38 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 4:38 PM EST
"Here is a very informative video about coltan, and how it being found naturally in a part of Africa has caused distatrous results. Africa was mentioned by Weaver in the last episode.
Congo’s Bloody Coltan
http://www.sfbayview.com/2008/in-focus-congos-bloody-coltan/

I have a longer post where I mention that coltan is actually a ore that when used in the terminators endosekeleton is actually refined in to titanium to give that metal stronger heat properties. "
Yes the writers made a reference of actual politics in the show. Very well played.

Coltan as a matter of fact can't be used to built a endoskeleton like Titanium Alluminium or steel, it woudl make sense if it's used to coat the base metal, though.
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kingsteve
kingsteve
33. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 4:44 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 4:44 PM EST
"I find the 20% estimation very difficult to believe (the link was to a forum - do we know the poster was a writer?). Consider human muscle is approximately 3 times more dense than fat. It's POSSIBLE, two individuals can be about 20% in density difference. All of this is well within acceptable limits for SWIMMING. Cameron has admitted - she cannot swim. And considering her strength and speed (ability to stroke much more than a human), she must be considerably more dense (she IS made of metal...).

Consider how she tosses humans around. This creates a physics problem (torque and momentum) if she weighed only 140 pounds (she would move quite a bit too by lunging a 200 pound human - strength is irrelevant regarding momentum, only mass and opposing velocities matter).

Consider her fights with Cromartie/Vick, IF she weighed 140 pounds, either could throw Cameron further than the length of a football field, likewise with Cammie throwing them. Termi's simply have too much strength. It creates many issues if you go by a "light termi" model. Having a REASONABLE weight of at least a few hundred pounds solves that issue. Plus, they'd still move the same, due to how strong they are (Cam would still seem graceful).

Lastly, consider her leverage (or lack thereof) in lifting Eric out of the wheelchair. There's no way you lift like that, only weighing 140 (again, this is torque - independent of strength). Facing the facts, no one will be carrying our beloved cyborg off the dance floor of the prom. She weighs too much. Making her too light will create continuity issues, which, regarding weight arguments, is starting to become a pet peeve for me.

I agree with earlier estimates, in order to maintain a REASONABLE (taking evidence from the show into account, and general physics) she must weigh at LEAST 250 pounds, which is well within reason for not being spotted and still being able to move around."
Weight makes no difference with swimming; Terminators have no buoyancy - because they don't have lungs and have no oxygen inside them to help keep them afloat. Ships weigh far more than a Termie, but they float fine.

Sarah managed to drag Cameron into a chair to get her out the window in Derek's apartment. Sarah's tough but she's not physically that strong. Talking in brute strength, John is stronger than Sarah. So I'd say Cameron couldn't weigh more than 250lbs, max.

As for someone earlier saying about in T3 when Arnie shattered the tiles on the floor, might it have something to do with the fact he was slammed into it pretty hard. If you did it hard enough with a human, the same would happen. Though there'd be very little left of them.

And no way Arnie weighed 2000lbs; how would he have ridden the motorbikes in both T1 and T2?

MY guess is Cameron weighs in at 200-250lbs; Arnie at around 300-350 lbs. T-888s like Cromartie and Vick, somewhere in between.
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notty22
notty22
34. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 4:46 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 4:46 PM EST
"Here is a very informative video about coltan, and how it being found naturally in a part of Africa has caused distatrous results. Africa was mentioned by Weaver in the last episode.
Congo’s Bloody Coltan
http://www.sfbayview.com/2008/in-focus-congos-bloody-coltan/

I have a longer post where I mention that coltan is actually a ore that when used in the terminators endosekeleton is actually refined in to titanium to give that metal stronger heat properties. "
Depending on how different or how much coltan is refined in to say titanium would the metal have that much different properties than titanium. Nascar racing engines which use 350 chevrolet engines of a base design that has been around for over 50 years. These engines use valves and other components made of steel that is refined in Japan. In testing this titanium showed finer properties , life, and durability than any other steel. The idea that even engine engineers can find limitations in the steel they use that they need specialized steel is interesting and shows why Skynet needed a certain grade of steel for their endoskeletons.
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TheTurk
TheTurk
35. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 4:49 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 4:49 PM EST
T888 and Cameron endos aren't made purely out of tantalum-nobium, tantalum and niobium are additives blended with titanium and aluminum in intermetallic form (the real life equivalent of a hyperalloy) to give the endos greater strength and a higher melting point.

Terminators sink rather than float because of bouyancy, not weight issues. And yes, Terminators are a bit heavier than a human of the same size, but not ridiculously so. A 600 lb. terminator would be a very poor infiltrator-- we joked in the writers' room that you could simply dig pits with breakaway flooring in front of every resistance bunker as a foolproof way to foil them.

Of course, a 'roided out bodybuilder hiding among skinny, starving refugees isn't a great infiltrator, either, but that's a whole other subject. :)
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Pharazon
Pharazon
36. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 4:54 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 4:54 PM EST
"T888 and Cameron endos aren't made purely out of tantalum-nobium, tantalum and niobium are additives blended with titanium and aluminum in intermetallic form (the real life equivalent of a hyperalloy) to give the endos greater strength and a higher melting point.

Terminators sink rather than float because of bouyancy, not weight issues. And yes, Terminators are a bit heavier than a human of the same size, but not ridiculously so. A 600 lb. terminator would be a very poor infiltrator-- we joked in the writers' room that you could simply dig pits with breakaway flooring in front of every resistance bunker as a foolproof way to foil them.

Of course, a 'roided out bodybuilder hiding among skinny, starving refugees isn't a great infiltrator, either, but that's a whole other subject. :)"
That first part there sounds really, really cool. xD

Thank you for explaining.
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GregTheVirus
GregTheVirus
37. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 4:55 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 4:55 PM EST
"Weight makes no difference with swimming; Terminators have no buoyancy - because they don't have lungs and have no oxygen inside them to help keep them afloat. Ships weigh far more than a Termie, but they float fine.

Sarah managed to drag Cameron into a chair to get her out the window in Derek's apartment. Sarah's tough but she's not physically that strong. Talking in brute strength, John is stronger than Sarah. So I'd say Cameron couldn't weigh more than 250lbs, max.

As for someone earlier saying about in T3 when Arnie shattered the tiles on the floor, might it have something to do with the fact he was slammed into it pretty hard. If you did it hard enough with a human, the same would happen. Though there'd be very little left of them.

And no way Arnie weighed 2000lbs; how would he have ridden the motorbikes in both T1 and T2?

MY guess is Cameron weighs in at 200-250lbs; Arnie at around 300-350 lbs. T-888s like Cromartie and Vick, somewhere in between."
Terminators can breath. Remember in Terminator 1, Kyle Reese says they can have "bad breath." So, I wouldn't discount their ability to breath just yet.

You can still swim with your lungs not completely inflated. But regardless, that wouldn't make a difference for a Terminator. Weight does not matter, never said it did, density does. Two things can keep you afloat in water, one is buoyancy, the other is a density less than water (they're intertwined). Pudgy people float better than muscle bound people, because fat ~1 g/mL, muscle is like 3x that.

You are right, a ship weighs much more, but due to water displacement, and the buoyancy effect, it's mass is less than of the water it displaces. So, in a way, when it's upright, it's less dense than water - not the case for a Termi.
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kingsteve
kingsteve
38. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 5:10 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 5:10 PM EST
"Terminators can breath. Remember in Terminator 1, Kyle Reese says they can have "bad breath." So, I wouldn't discount their ability to breath just yet.

You can still swim with your lungs not completely inflated. But regardless, that wouldn't make a difference for a Terminator. Weight does not matter, never said it did, density does. Two things can keep you afloat in water, one is buoyancy, the other is a density less than water (they're intertwined). Pudgy people float better than muscle bound people, because fat ~1 g/mL, muscle is like 3x that.

You are right, a ship weighs much more, but due to water displacement, and the buoyancy effect, it's mass is less than of the water it displaces. So, in a way, when it's upright, it's less dense than water - not the case for a Termi."
Bad breath is simply a term used. The smell on breath is from inside the mouth, not the lungs. But they probably do have false lungs to simulate breathing. So you'd be right there.

But as you said, it's about water displacement, and given Terminators have the same form and shape as us, they'd have similar displacement properties.

I agree with earlier posts that the terminators might not be that dense, really. They wouldn't be made purely of coltan; it would be included in an alloy with titanium, which would give it heat resistance. Titanium is pretty light; so I'd still say Cameron wouldn't weigh that much. She's light enough for Sarah to drag, which suggests she's no more than 200lbs or so.

So don't worry Cameron, you can have another slice on pizza day!
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DavidB1111
39. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 5:19 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 5:19 PM EST
"Terminators can breath. Remember in Terminator 1, Kyle Reese says they can have "bad breath." So, I wouldn't discount their ability to breath just yet.

You can still swim with your lungs not completely inflated. But regardless, that wouldn't make a difference for a Terminator. Weight does not matter, never said it did, density does. Two things can keep you afloat in water, one is buoyancy, the other is a density less than water (they're intertwined). Pudgy people float better than muscle bound people, because fat ~1 g/mL, muscle is like 3x that.

You are right, a ship weighs much more, but due to water displacement, and the buoyancy effect, it's mass is less than of the water it displaces. So, in a way, when it's upright, it's less dense than water - not the case for a Termi."
Hey, I'm fat, and I can't float. :)
To be honest, I think Cameron weighs about as much as I do at an extreme. I weigh 286 pounds. :)

Now, that episode where they carry her and toss her out the window, I though John helped her a little?

Also, no one weighing less that 200 pounds would do that to a car from that distance. After all, when you're falling, you weigh more do to the speed of falling, mass= speed times normal mass or something, I can't remember the whole thing.

But I'm certain if I tossed a 120 pound person on to that car, from that distance, they'd probably smash it, but it wouldn't be as destroyed. :)
Also, that fight between Cameron and Vick in the truck would be a little odd even if they weighed a combined 675 pounds or so.
Vick wouldn't cause the van to rock like that at even 350 pounds. Otherwise, well, I could run into the side of that van at my 285 pounds, and wee, the truck suddenly is moving in two different directions at once...

Bottom line, it's a show, it's not going to be perfect.
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