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GregTheVirus
GregTheVirus
60. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:04 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:04 PM EST
"So, if that's true, how do boats float in the water? :) Because they weight a lot more than the water they're on. Unless you take the mass of the entire ocean into account, :)
I can't believe it's as simple as buoyancy and weight, but hey.
Again, there's a small flaw with this theory too, I weight 285 pounds, no, not British, :), and I pretty much don't float well. I don't weigh more than a terminator though. Or for that matter, a boat."
Read my above post.

Boats float because the space displacing the water (boats are like a bowl shape), brings the "density" of the boat that's displacing the water less of water itself. The lesser dense thing will float, thus the boat. It has everything to do with density, nothing to do with weight.
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notty22
notty22
61. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:05 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:05 PM EST
Heres a good article describing why ships float
Archimedes' Principle of Buoyancy
http://www.bible-history.com/resource/ff_float.htm

And another why a fat person floats better than a heavily muscled person.
Body Buoyancy
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen06/gen06428.htm
They both in a way apply to a terminator, who is shaped like a human, but far more dense, and does not displace any more water in trying to float.
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
62. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:10 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:10 PM EST
"Let's be careful about Archemedes' principle. "Weight" is a very loosely term, and is effectively worthless in the physics world. MASS still matters in archemede's principle, because the premise behind buoyancy is water displacement. Thus, mass is important, because density is important.

Shape and design wouldn't matter as much (regarding a terminator), the only thing that would matter is a design like a ship (which the empty space allows for it's buoyancy). The space displaces some of the water, thereby bringing the mass of the ship displacing the water to a value less than the water displaced, thereby allowing it to float.

Both parties, the Turk and Cuthbert's argument are both correct. The only issue is talking in different contexts. My point - let's not get misconstrued, mass and shape matter (not weight)."
Yes, you're correct on your statemnt, we should talk about mass, and as a matter of fact I always talked about mass, since I used the term "kg", and not newton. I used "weight" in a loose way, anyway, as far as g is a constant, in this case is, the two quantities are proportional.

My points are that coltan is a "literary license" that they needed to use to write a good episode, heavy metal, not scientifically appropriate, but appropriate from a story telling point of view, and that the weight of a terminator, since we are talking about metal, should be in the range I indicated.

As a simple prove, you can try to weight a human skeleton, I think it's under 15 kg, very light. and divide it for the density of the bone. Then multiply what you get (the volume) for the density of Ti, you'll get the exact weight of a human skeleton made of Titanium...talking about just skeleton, not hydraulics, pistons, actuators etc...the results are interesting.
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
63. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:11 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:11 PM EST
"Heres a good article describing why ships float
Archimedes' Principle of Buoyancy
http://www.bible-history.com/resource/ff_float.htm

And another why a fat person floats better than a heavily muscled person.
Body Buoyancy
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen06/gen06428.htm
They both in a way apply to a terminator, who is shaped like a human, but far more dense, and does not displace any more water in trying to float."
The density of fat is lower than mucles...that's pretty well known. Fishes are very fat, so mammals who live in water, in comparison with humans.
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
64. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:12 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:12 PM EST
"Read my above post.

Boats float because the space displacing the water (boats are like a bowl shape), brings the "density" of the boat that's displacing the water less of water itself. The lesser dense thing will float, thus the boat. It has everything to do with density, nothing to do with weight."
Correct!

We have to talk about average density, although if a part of a body is much denser than the rest and localized far away from its center of mass the body can be unbalanced in water.
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IvyMike
IvyMike
65. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:17 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:17 PM EST
"Mmm, I think you don't get it.

A body floats if its average density is below 1 kg/dm3. That's all, folks.

Now, the density of flessh is much lower than 1 kg/dm3, I should ask Mhall that the last time gave me the precise number, but let's say that it's 0.7 kg/dm3, -30% than water. This means that a body just made of water would have 30% of mass more, and we already are over the values that the writers indicate as "realistic" for them.

But here we aren't talking about water, we are talking about a ti-based alloy. Do you want to know the density of Titanium?

4.506 g·cm−3 while for water is 0.998 g/cm³ (liquid at 20 °C, 1 atm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium

And with this, the game is over,even considering that half of the terminator is metal and half flesh we would have an average density "floating" around 3 gr/cm3, this would mean that a terminator is effectively of a weight of 600 lb...even this extimation is pretty...optimistic.

And that's all, good night and good luck! "
Why do you assume an endoskeleton is made of solid titanium, or even a conventional ti alloy?

There is no wiki page for "hyperalloy" because it's FICTIONAL!!
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DavidB1111
66. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:17 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:20 PM EST
Ah, well, in that case, I concede the point to both of you.
Me needs to learn science again. :)
So, we're all in agreement, Terminators can't float because their density is too high? Right, good?

Ivy, concede the point, you're like me. We're both wrong because we can't fight the rules of the universe, and a hyperalloy can't have a density less than the materials it's made out of. I think.
Also, Coltan itself is an alloy, it's not a metal you find in nature. Ergo, it's density can't be less than that of water. Because then it's average density would be less than the planet Saturn. :)
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IvyMike
IvyMike
67. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:27 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:27 PM EST
"<snip>
Ivy, concede the point, you're like me. We're both wrong because we can't fight the rules of the universe, and a hyperalloy can't have a density less than the materials it's made out of. I think."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel
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GregTheVirus
GregTheVirus
68. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 7:41 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 7:45 PM EST
"Ivy, concede the point, you're like me. We're both wrong because we can't fight the rules of the universe, and a hyperalloy can't have a density less than the materials it's made out of. I think.
Also, Coltan itself is an alloy, it's not a metal you find in nature. Ergo, it's density can't be less than that of water. Because then it's average density would be less than the planet Saturn. :)
"
For all intensive purposes, since we've hit the border between what's factual now, and "realistic fiction" (yes an oxymoron), the Turk, as mentioned by Ivy, said "hyperalloy." Now, in the fictional world, this could mean many different things, including discrepancies in density. Although, I'm not well versed enough to know if an alloy's density is equal to the sum of the proportionate elemental densities. It could be a hyperalloy, which is formed into a matrix (similar to that of a crystal). This would increase rigidity of metals (all metals are pliable to a degree), and decrease density, by causing a porous matrix inbetween, which could house who knows what kind of essentials (similar to the spongy portions of our bone). So, I'd say the design may matter.

I want you to understand I was never a "big fan" for the "termi's are heavy!" notion. It just made sense, as an educated assumption, and my defense of it was exacerbated by people's hasty willingness to jump the "light" train. In today's world, such a design is impractical. However, Turk says "hyperalloy", and this is fiction; that's something we, as sci-fi fans, have to accept. I know, I played some devil's advocate here, but I think we're all on the same page. Regardless, whether Cammie weighs 140 or 250, she's badass either way (and this is a good example why this show rocks, because we're here brainstorming over stuff like this.
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IvyMike
IvyMike
69. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 8:00 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 8:00 PM EST
"For all intensive purposes, since we've hit the border between what's factual now, and "realistic fiction" (yes an oxymoron), the Turk, as mentioned by Ivy, said "hyperalloy." Now, in the fictional world, this could mean many different things, including discrepancies in density. Although, I'm not well versed enough to know if an alloy's density is equal to the sum of the proportionate elemental densities. It could be a hyperalloy, which is formed into a matrix (similar to that of a crystal). This would increase rigidity of metals (all metals are pliable to a degree), and decrease density, by causing a porous matrix inbetween, which could house who knows what kind of essentials (similar to the spongy portions of our bone). So, I'd say the design may matter.

I want you to understand I was never a "big fan" for the "termi's are heavy!" notion. It just made sense, as an educated assumption, and my defense of it was exacerbated by people's hasty willingness to jump the "light" train. In today's world, such a design is impractical. However, Turk says "hyperalloy", and this is fiction; that's something we, as sci-fi fans, have to accept. I know, I played some devil's advocate here, but I think we're all on the same page. Regardless, whether Cammie weighs 140 or 250, she's badass either way (and this is a good example why this show rocks, because we're here brainstorming over stuff like this."
Agreed.

(one teensy weensy nitpick: the phrase is "for all intents and purposes", I hate to be so picky but I also hate to see such an intelligent post spoiled by such a tiny thing, please take this in the spirit in which it is intended)
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GregTheVirus
GregTheVirus
70. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 8:06 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 8:06 PM EST
"Agreed.

(one teensy weensy nitpick: the phrase is "for all intents and purposes", I hate to be so picky but I also hate to see such an intelligent post spoiled by such a tiny thing, please take this in the spirit in which it is intended)"
Hahaha, And my true colors have shown, I certainly am not an expert with the English language. (my Verbal score on the MCAT's drives this point home... and through the floor, really, lol). Thanks for the correction though, I'll keep that in mind. I never have a problem with constructive criticism. :-)
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DavidB1111
71. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 8:08 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 8:09 PM EST
Alright, so I was wrong about the density thingy, but still, it makes sense that the Terms are made out of a metal alloy which is still very denser that water. :)
Also, that Aerogel isn't a metal at all. I stand by what I said about metal. Also, can something be a hyper-alloy and not be made out of metal? The heck? Ivy, you're killing me here. Changing everything that I know...
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IvyMike
IvyMike
72. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 8:19 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 8:19 PM EST
"Hahaha, And my true colors have shown, I certainly am not an expert with the English language. (my Verbal score on the MCAT's drives this point home... and through the floor, really, lol). Thanks for the correction though, I'll keep that in mind. I never have a problem with constructive criticism. :-)"
If we're both quick you can edit your post and I can delete mine and we can all pretend it was like that all along ;-)
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IvyMike
IvyMike
73. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 8:23 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 8:23 PM EST
"Alright, so I was wrong about the density thingy, but still, it makes sense that the Terms are made out of a metal alloy which is still very denser that water. :)
Also, that Aerogel isn't a metal at all. I stand by what I said about metal. Also, can something be a hyper-alloy and not be made out of metal? The heck? Ivy, you're killing me here. Changing everything that I know..."
All I was trying to say was that the endoskeleton need not be solid metal.

The wiki entry mentions aerogels made of alumina, chromia and tin oxide.
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DavidB1111
74. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 8:31 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 8:33 PM EST
"All I was trying to say was that the endoskeleton need not be solid metal.

The wiki entry mentions aerogels made of alumina, chromia and tin oxide. "
Ah,well, fair enough, though I dare say it wouldn't be effecient at all to make them out of Alumina, Chromia, and tin oxide. The last of the three is the only one I heard of, unless the first two are fancy ways of spelling Aluminum and Chromium. Plus, Aluminum is weak. And even with Chromium, they nothing on steel, let alone titanium and Coltan.

Still, I'm putting my money on uber-density prevents them from doing swimming lessons.
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GregTheVirus
GregTheVirus
75. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 8:34 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 8:34 PM EST
"If we're both quick you can edit your post and I can delete mine and we can all pretend it was like that all along ;-)"
lol, I'm not that quick. =P Plus, Sarah would want us to learn from our mistakes, No Fate But What We Make... No more "intensive purposes" for me!
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IvyMike
IvyMike
76. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 9:02 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 9:04 PM EST
"Ah,well, fair enough, though I dare say it wouldn't be effecient at all to make them out of Alumina, Chromia, and tin oxide. The last of the three is the only one I heard of, unless the first two are fancy ways of spelling Aluminum and Chromium. Plus, Aluminum is weak. And even with Chromium, they nothing on steel, let alone titanium and Coltan.

Still, I'm putting my money on uber-density prevents them from doing swimming lessons."
No, I'm not saying the endo is made of those materials, just that aerogels can be made of metallic compounds, suggesting that the endos could be made of metallic compunds that are light and very strong.

Since it's fiction we could just as well say the endo is made of the same stuff as a General Products hull: "an artificially-generated giant molecule, with the inter-atomic bonds artificially strengthened."

It may also be that the endo material can heal itself in a manner similar to the artificial skin... we've never seen Cam repair herself other than to pull out slugs from her skin. Perhaps she kept the bar of coltan to chew on after a particularly gruelling encounter...
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noodloid
noodloid
77. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 10:31 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 10:31 PM EST
"It may also be that the endo material can heal itself in a manner similar to the artificial skin... we've never seen Cam repair herself other than to pull out slugs from her skin. Perhaps she kept the bar of coltan to chew on after a particularly gruelling encounter..."
As Summer was quick to mention while one-upping Eliza on Friday:
"I stapled my face!"

I now have this image in my head of Cameron chewing on a hunk of metal, and blowing a big bubble like a child with a mouthful of gum.
...this thought actually entertains me. :-)
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IvyMike
IvyMike
78. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 18 2009, 10:42 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2009, 10:42 PM EST
"As Summer was quick to mention while one-upping Eliza on Friday:
"I stapled my face!"

I now have this image in my head of Cameron chewing on a hunk of metal, and blowing a big bubble like a child with a mouthful of gum.
...this thought actually entertains me. :-)"
Friends of mine have a pit bull bitch whose favourite chew toy is... a brick!
A Terminator is a lot meaner and tougher than a pit bull, right?
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CuthbertAllgood
CuthbertAllgood
79. RE: A weighty problem
Feb 19 2009, 3:03 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2009, 3:03 AM EST
"All I was trying to say was that the endoskeleton need not be solid metal.

The wiki entry mentions aerogels made of alumina, chromia and tin oxide. "
Aerogel is not an alloy.

Plus, it looks extremely fragile since it looks like a syntherized matarial made of oxides of alluminium AND tin...
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