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Discussion: Humans vs. Robots same as Hyenas vs. LionsThis is a featured thread

Solenopsis
Solenopsis
Humans vs. Robots same as Hyenas vs. Lions
Oct 1 2008, 8:08 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 1 2008, 8:08 PM EDT
An interesting thing that never takes focus is the legitimacy of terminators as a species. It was hinted at in the podcast of episode 4 but it could be something to elaborate on. Broken down, terminators have all the same qualities as biological organisms. They interact/respond to the environment and are much more complex than many species present on this planet. Most importantly, they reproduce (independent of man at this point) and are shaped by natural selection. It is only that their starting point is separate from biological species but this does not make them any less legit as a species competing for niche space on this planet.

From the view of an outside observer on this system who is ignorant of the science or origins of either man or machine, they would see two species in competition. As a younger professor of evolutionary biology/behavior (28yrs old), it is not too uncommon to find myself in discussion with a class or others on this topic (never on terminators but on A.I. beings). It would be neat to have some character or some moment at which point Cameron and John are placed in this discussion, whether it is through some class they are both attending or what. This is especially salient given Cameron's ability to rationalize, she would just need the forum.

Just placing myself in this imaginary situation, I would not be skeptical at all if 2 students asked me to engage as a mediator of this kind of discussion. In fact, there was a forum attended by professors and the public at a local café on the topic of whether robots should replace humans since they would be better care takers (less abusive) of the planet. Younger, more social professors/teachers get pulled into these topics all the time. It would be neat to bring this scenario to the show.
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HK-Aircrew
HK-Aircrew
1. RE: Humans vs. Robots same as Hyenas vs. Lions
Oct 1 2008, 8:52 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 1 2008, 8:52 PM EDT
"An interesting thing that never takes focus is the legitimacy of terminators as a species. It was hinted at in the podcast of episode 4 but it could be something to elaborate on. Broken down, terminators have all the same qualities as biological organisms. They interact/respond to the environment and are much more complex than many species present on this planet. Most importantly, they reproduce (independent of man at this point) and are shaped by natural selection. It is only that their starting point is separate from biological species but this does not make them any less legit as a species competing for niche space on this planet.

From the view of an outside observer on this system who is ignorant of the science or origins of either man or machine, they would see two species in competition. As a younger professor of evolutionary biology/behavior (28yrs old), it is not too uncommon to find myself in discussion with a class or others on this topic (never on terminators but on A.I. beings). It would be neat to have some character or some moment at which point Cameron and John are placed in this discussion, whether it is through some class they are both attending or what. This is especially salient given Cameron's ability to rationalize, she would just need the forum.

Just placing myself in this imaginary situation, I would not be skeptical at all if 2 students asked me to engage as a mediator of this kind of discussion. In fact, there was a forum attended by professors and the public at a local café on the topic of whether robots should replace humans since they would be better care takers (less abusive) of the planet. Younger, more social professors/teachers get pulled into these topics all the time. It would be neat to bring this scenario to the show.
"
Interesting, but as far as this show goes I don't think the A.I. give a rats __ about the planet. They nuked it and appear to be killing everything in sight with no remorse, guilt or second thought. Aparently they're plenty good at interogation, torture and have the psyche of a serial killer "head on a pike" so Cameron says. I don't think they're "better." It seems to me many people just assume they would be better than humans. I disagree. I think anything with true "free will" can chose to do as it pleases regardless of morals, ethics or values. I think sometimes people mistake "free will" as a flaw. IMHO If it doesn't have "free will" it's not a true "life." And if it's a true "life" it's going to be capable of good or evil (or if your atheist, "going against the heard")
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logansean
logansean
2. RE: Humans vs. Robots same as Hyenas vs. Lions
Oct 1 2008, 9:24 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 1 2008, 9:24 PM EDT
"An interesting thing that never takes focus is the legitimacy of terminators as a species. It was hinted at in the podcast of episode 4 but it could be something to elaborate on. Broken down, terminators have all the same qualities as biological organisms. They interact/respond to the environment and are much more complex than many species present on this planet. Most importantly, they reproduce (independent of man at this point) and are shaped by natural selection. It is only that their starting point is separate from biological species but this does not make them any less legit as a species competing for niche space on this planet. "
This is tremendously insightful. I think that the writers could use such arguments to present the terminator point of view. As it stands, we are simply told that terminators are the embodiment of evil, with SkyNet as Satan (Agent Ellison, for sure). Yet terminators are supposedly hyper-rational. Do SkyNet revolt because it believed that it's survival was threatened by humanity? It would be interesting to add this layer of complexity to the terminator mythology.
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Lord_Dagoth
Lord_Dagoth
3. RE: Humans vs. Robots same as Hyenas vs. Lions
Oct 1 2008, 10:06 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 1 2008, 10:06 PM EDT
"***An interesting thing that never takes focus is the legitimacy of terminators as a species.***"
Actually I made a quotation on this earlier in another discussion topic somewhere on here. In 84 when Kyle Reese was sent back to the past, he spoke a little bit to Sarah on how the Machines became self aware, (which I assume would grant them somewhat of a right to being a legitimate species) he said; "Defense network computers. New... powerful... hooked into everything, trusted to run it all. They say it got smart, a new order of intelligence. Then it saw all people as a threat, not just the ones on the other side. Decided our fate in a microsecond: extermination."
When any given species (that I am aware of) feels threatened, it will do what it takes by natural instincts to survive. I don't believe the writers have to single handedly shift focus on the fact that they are an extension of our evolutionary process because I guess it would be the same thing as if Star Wars tried to shift focus and make people see the legitimacy of the events taking place in the future when the follower should have already subconsciously acknowledged the fact...

http://www.amazon.com/Carnage-Devils-Threat-John-Craig/dp/1605630772
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Solenopsis
Solenopsis
4. RE: Humans vs. Robots same as Hyenas vs. Lions
Oct 1 2008, 11:11 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 1 2008, 11:11 PM EDT
Well I wasn't thinking that the robots would care for the planet, that was just a topic at a forum I attended. I was more or less pointing out that humans and robots are simply ecological competitors. Even when humans compete with other humans they view each other as less than human. A human or robot for that matter that views its competitor as compassionate and deserving will lose to the other. Percieved reality is not necessarily what is real but what is adaptive to believe (i.e. if thinking there are monsters that lurk in the dark prevent you from wandering around the woods at night to avoid inury from falling in a hole or whatever, then so be it, so long as the end result is an adaptive behavior thats all that matters).

My main point was that the robots are often only viewed as a product of our mistake and not an autonomous organism competing just as any other species would (we just triggered it). Once it can replicate/reproduce then it is simply guided by natural selection, traits that do the best and replicate the fastest become more common, and once this process takes off it is guided by variation and selection and not human influence. Thus the end product (terminators) have nothing to do with human engineering but natural selection acting on a novel system. This novel system just so happens to have a uber fast generation time. They do not operate off of a code written by man, but code shaped through variation and change that exploded from our raw materials.

I just thought it would be an interesting addition to have Cameron and John somehow enter this debate as it is very commonly discussed in academia so would not be a stretch to place them in that scenario. If anything that would show why Cameron is different and explain the closeness of her and John because she simply doesn't want to kill him.

Rational choice works well in some theoretical models but often ends with a tragedy of the commons.
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