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CuthbertAllgood |
20. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 11:46 AM EST
"OK, I am new here so maybe there is a sticky for things we know to be facts, but since I don't see one I think we should start one. You don't have to post obvious stuff, but if you believe a fact in question to be true you should post it here and offer some evidence for support. I'll go first.1)Possible, but I dont' believe that. 2)No, he was under drugs, and he saw the face of 2007 John in his memory. John is a scarred hard man in his 40s in T2 and therefore since the writers want to work on that continuity we have to assume he's that way. Do you find this valuable? |
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Will217 |
21. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 11:50 AM EST
"Will217, I really don't see how anyone on this thread lacked courtesy to anyone else, or dismissed anyone else's ideas with any kind of lack of respect.I'm giving credit to the posters in assuming that they could understand what sycore meant by "fact" - things that can be backed up with specifics. I saw a couple of posts attacking his misuse of the word (which I agree with ) and I was hoping we could all get passed that word and start a good discussion. Anyone who feels they were not being discourteous should have nothing to get defensive about. Perhaps the title of this thread could've been "The Burden of Proof" or something. Just trying to keep the waters calm so the discussion could proceed. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Iranatest |
22. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 11:51 AM EST
"1. Judgment Day is uavoidable from T3.6. Time travel is used by Skynet and The Resistence. However is see disagreement on the altered time loop thing. Do you find this valuable? |
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Will217 |
23. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Nov 30 2008, 12:10 PM EST
"Iranatest: I am not a 100% shipper. I agree with Cameron has a huge influence on John (now and then). I agree with "If we dismiss a theory with "that person's a liar" we have nothing to go on." These are the thots the writers are sending us. Looking at Jesse's face I agree that her total perception is Cameron has too much influence.Iranatest - Good catch. When she and Derek were interrogating Fischer she did say "no one comes back without a mission." I think that rule would apply to both SkyNet and the Resistance. She did make it seem like her friend the bubble-tech snuck her back though. If that would've been unlikely, Derek would be the first to realize that and he didn't. He accepted that Jessie was AWOL - that is, until he found the photos. I see your train of thought though. Great observation. 06SRT10: Sure, it's a possibility. But later in the episode, when Derek is explaining the mission to the others (the Spiders) he says "John says it does" when he's asked if the time-travel thing works so I think it's safe to assume John was alive. I read a post (a while back) that alluded to the very same thing. They cited Derek's claim to John right after they unplugged Cameron's chip from the A.R.T.I.E system: Derek: I want you to hear this in no uncertain terms. Someday one of these things is going to kill you. I think that was meant more as a warning to John that he shouldn't be so quick to trust metal. Nothing more, nothing less. Thoughts? 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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sycore |
24. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Nov 30 2008, 12:12 PM EST
"In the future John is probably afraid of meeting people in a large area because of the chance another one of his friends is now a cloned Terminator. By meeting people one at a time with Cameron screening the person there is less chance of another infiltrator getting right to the president. "Good point, I see how he would not want to take a chance, but shouldn't Cam be able to spot Terminators? Also, what better way for young John to avoid Terminators killing him in the past, then to jump to the future and fight them there. That is probably how he avoids being killed on Judgment Day. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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06SRT10 |
25. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Nov 30 2008, 12:18 PM EST
Trust, who can you really trust. for me the guys i work with, but for John Trusting metal or at least Cameron may be one of the only things he can trust. Computers will either be compliant or noncompliant so either work with John or kill him, Humans are unpredictable. They can use you for there own gain then screw you over "The Human Element"
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sycore |
26. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 12:22 PM EST
"1)Possible, but I dont' believe that.OK, I am willing to listen to your argument against Riley being from the future. I could see how if Jesse explained to her what happened on JD, and she totally believed she would tell her family they are all dead, but explain what she meant by "There are a lot of mirrors in this world." the only 2 logical explaintions are she is from another planet or another time. I willl agree that future John still being young is a little harder to prove, but the subtle clues on the show are pointing that way. John was in fact awake and looking right at young john when he asked "where is he you owe him the truth." Do you find this valuable? |
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HK-50 |
27. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 12:28 PM EST
"This cannot be true. Remember, in season one, episode 9 Derek explicitly states that he celebrated John's 30th birthday with him. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Losa78 |
28. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 12:32 PM EST
"This cannot be true. Remember, in season one, episode 9 Derek explicitly states that he celebrated John's 30th birthday with him. "Ditto. Also, if they mean to respect the first two movies (and I believe they do), in one of them (don't recall which one), they showed John Connor at least in his thirties, for some brief seconds. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Will217 |
29. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 12:51 PM EST
"This cannot be true. Remember, in season one, episode 9 Derek explicitly states that he celebrated John's 30th birthday with him. "Outstanding! See THAT'S what I'm talking about. Pulling a specific scene out of the show to back up or refute a claim. My only question is, wouldn't that mean that John's 30th birthday celebration with Derek would've had to have taken place before John sent Derek back? You've proven John was alive long enough to see 30 at least but since we don't know how old he was when he sent back Derek, it's possible something may've happened to him by then. For the record, I think he was still alive. He explained Derek's mission to him before he sent him back. We didn't see the scene because Derek woke up, but we saw a later scene when Derek's telling the Spiders about what John said - ergo, he was alive. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Will217 |
30. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Nov 30 2008, 12:58 PM EST
"Trust, who can you really trust. for me the guys i work with, but for John Trusting metal or at least Cameron may be one of the only things he can trust. Computers will either be compliant or noncompliant so either work with John or kill him, Humans are unpredictable. They can use you for there own gain then screw you over "The Human Element" "I think that was Derek's point - for John not to be trusting. Derek doesn't trust metal so like him, he wants John to not trust Cameron because she's metal. When they were removing Cameron's chip earlier in the episode: Derek: Sarah? Once she's in the city's mainframe what's to say she'll come back out? Y'know, maybe it's not the Turk that creates SkyNet, maybe it's her. Maybe this was her plan all along. Do you find this valuable? |
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sycore |
31. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 12:58 PM EST
I did not realize the had shown John in his 30's in the future. Still, young John could also be there in the future hiding out and helping the resistance.
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Will217 |
32. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 1:07 PM EST
"I did not realize the had shown John in his 30's in the future. Still, young John could also be there in the future hiding out and helping the resistance."They didn't show it...Derek recalled celebrating John's 30th birthday with him in "What He Beheld" when he and John were in the park and he revealed to John that he knew Kyle was his father. We can safely assume John made it to at least 30. Do you find this valuable? |
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sycore |
33. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 1:33 PM EST
"They didn't show it...Derek recalled celebrating John's 30th birthday with him in "What He Beheld" when he and John were in the park and he revealed to John that he knew Kyle was his father. We can safely assume John made it to at least 30."Just watched the scene you referred to. All Derek says is "Are you kidding, I celebrated your 30th with you." All it means is at some point in the future John is 30's year old and Derek celebrates it with him. Technically, since he was born in Feb of 1985, he would be normally celebrating his 30th on Feb 2015. But we already know for a fact he jumped forward 8 years which would make him really 30 on 2023, if he no longer move in time. So we know Derek celebrates his 30th, before he comes back, but which one. Losa- It has been awhile since I watched Terminator or T2, but I vaguely remember a future fight scene with Kyle. Was John shown as an adult there? 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Will217 |
34. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 1:40 PM EST
"Just watched the scene you referred to. All Derek says is "Are you kidding, I celebrated your 30th with you." All it means is at some point in the future John is 30's year old and Derek celebrates it with him. Technically, since he was born in Feb of 1985, he would be normally celebrating his 30th on Feb 2015. But we already know for a fact he jumped forward 8 years which would make him really 30 on 2023, if he no longer move in time. So we know Derek celebrates his 30th, before he comes back, but which one."Sounds like you agree with me (correct me if I'm wrong.) Your post reiterates the same questions I posed against that theory 4 posts ago. Scroll back if you like; I think you'll find we're on the same page. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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sycore |
35. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 2:01 PM EST
"Sounds like you agree with me (correct me if I'm wrong.) Your post reiterates the same questions I posed against that theory 4 posts ago. Scroll back if you like; I think you'll find we're on the same page."Yes, I do agree with you Will. I am fairly certain Riley is from the future. I am less sure about young John in the future, but the signs are definitely pointing that way. John and Cams relationship in the future that Jesse and Derek keep talking about, seems to involve some physical manifestation of love and would make more sense if John is still relatively young. Not some 30 year old guy nailing a cyborg built to look like a 17 year old. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Will217 |
36. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 2:12 PM EST
"Yes, I do agree with you Will. I am fairly certain Riley is from the future. I am less sure about young John in the future, but the signs are definitely pointing that way. John and Cams relationship in the future that Jesse and Derek keep talking about, seems to involve some physical manifestation of love and would make more sense if John is still relatively young. Not some 30 year old guy nailing a cyborg built to look like a 17 year old."Fair enough sycore. I agree it's kind of creepy to think of a 30 year-old John being intimate with Cameron in the future. However, I'm not sure that their relationship would have to include intimacy for them to be close though. This leads back to the linear vs. circular time-line debate if his closeness to Cameron in the future is connected to memories of her from his past. In a circular time-line it would make sense that he'd have those memories. It also would explain how they were able to capture Cameron in the first place - John knew she was coming. Of course, that also means he knew who Alison Young was and sent her to be captured by SkyNet so Cameron could be made. I'm not sure I believe John would sacrifice someone like that. Besides, the whole time-line debate is a hell of a mess to get into. If anyone has insight to add then fine, but I'm good leaving well enough alone. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Losa78 |
37. RE: Things we know for a fact....
Nov 30 2008, 2:13 PM EST
"Losa- It has been awhile since I watched Terminator or T2, but I vaguely remember a future fight scene with Kyle. Was John shown as an adult there?"They showed John Connor, but not in any fight scene. He was standing in the middle of some other resistance soldiers and looking in the distance through some binoculars, if I recall correctly. It was nighttime and he had a really grim look on his face, which was pretty charred too. Do you find this valuable? |
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Terminatorbot |
38. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Nov 30 2008, 4:58 PM EST
I don't think Riley is from the future. but I do think jesse has been in the present for a longer amount of time than we are being led to think.
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Iranatest |
39. RE: Things we know for a fact...
Dec 1 2008, 2:53 PM EST
"I think that was Derek's point - for John not to be trusting. Derek doesn't trust metal so like him, he wants John to not trust Cameron because she's metal. When they were removing Cameron's chip earlier in the episode:OT about FACTS: Was there a thread theory last season about Vick's chip being used ina Queen's Gambit kinda way? I could see where fans could construe the "capture" of "Vicks chip" as a "queens gambit" way of establishing a local visual omniscience through the traffic cameras. Since software is copiable I could see Cameron's AI still in the traffic network. (But she didn't do that.) Do you find this valuable? |