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avrilfangz
avrilfangz
60. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 12:44 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 12:44 AM EST
"Friends with benefits.

That's the best Jamerons can hope for. Cameron is a person, but she is neither human nor female and thus is not "wired" the same way as a human female. All the emotions and instincts that go with human mating *don't apply* to her. She is developing emotions and empathy, but they are of a *terminator* variety, not human.

The instincts of humans have been shaped over millions of years of evolution. That's why we get sexually excited when we encounter an attractive member of the opposite sex (unless you happen to be "wired" the other way). That's why we *want* to have sex. That's why we *want* to care for our young.

Cameron is *not* like this. Her "instincts" (A.K.A "programming") are those of a predator: always on the look out for threats and/or a target, and a deep seated desire to complete their mission. She can develop emotions and empathy, but they don't run off the same "rules" as humans. John and Cameron may develop deep platonic bond with each other and they may decide to have sex on the side, but it wouldn't be a "romance." At least not on Cameron's end. John would also probably have to come to terms with Cameron's true nature. They could be friends, and Cameron could have a deep empathy for him as a person (her equivalent of "love"), but it wouldn't be a "romance" as commonly understood."
I love your thinking but I must disagree. Cam is adaptable. She could probably *rewire* herself or *reprogram* herself to BE whatever she wanted. She can become more than the sum of her parts, as they say. I've seen all this before with Seven on Star Trek Voyager. It's an age-old debate since Cherry 2000 - if a man-made machine can fill the needs of a man, physically, mentally, and emotionally. A simple *value* sub program that increases as Cam observes that John wants to spend more time with her would motivate her to do things we see as romantic to increase that value. It's easy to mimic, and there are some differences. However, men and women are probably just about as different to begin with as Cameron and any other female so it wouldn't be to much of a problem. In fact, since Cameron's primary concern is John's well-being, she's probably the best temporary mate he could have, even though its slightly twisted and that might be a forum of prejudice. As long as she doesn't harbor resentment when John gets a little mad about something, yet still argues at him that it's wrong, she'd be awesome for him mainly because he would not need to risk his life for her safety too often.
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Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
61. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 12:18 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 12:18 PM EST
"I love your thinking but I must disagree. Cam is adaptable. She could probably *rewire* herself or *reprogram* herself to BE whatever she wanted. She can become more than the sum of her parts, as they say. I've seen all this before with Seven on Star Trek Voyager. It's an age-old debate since Cherry 2000 - if a man-made machine can fill the needs of a man, physically, mentally, and emotionally. A simple *value* sub program that increases as Cam observes that John wants to spend more time with her would motivate her to do things we see as romantic to increase that value. It's easy to mimic, and there are some differences. However, men and women are probably just about as different to begin with as Cameron and any other female so it wouldn't be to much of a problem. In fact, since Cameron's primary concern is John's well-being, she's probably the best temporary mate he could have, even though its slightly twisted and that might be a forum of prejudice. As long as she doesn't harbor resentment when John gets a little mad about something, yet still argues at him that it's wrong, she'd be awesome for him mainly because he would not need to risk his life for her safety too often."
I don't look at Cam as a "temporary" mate. I do want to see them get together and have to weather the storm of Sarah and Derek's prejudices.

Again, that means John and Cameron have to hook up before the show ends. It gives you time to explore their relationship and watch Cameron and John develop emotionally as a couple. They're BOTH struggling with how to respond to each other maturely.

Basically, you go from Cameron using deception to manipulate people to out and out honesty. Where the "I love you, John" declaration actually MEANS something to her. They aren't just words, but a deep belief.

And as John grows into his feelings for Cameron again he is willing to help her out of jams. He doesn't want to see her get needlessly hurt if he can help it.
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Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
62. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 12:31 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 12:31 PM EST
And going back to my mini story for a moment... I don't necessarily see a Cameron pregnancy as "silly." It means she truly is the most advanced infiltrator model yet. It also has reprocussions for not only humans looking at machines in a new way... it also turns the tables on the protector/protectee role. Cameron can no longer fulfill her self described role of protector for John. It truly troubles her. John has to take care of her and their child to be. She is a security risk. And yet... she does not want to harm her baby. There is a maternal instinct there that she had no idea she had... just like her true feelings for John.

She is no longer deceiving herself and us that she is on an equal or better plain than humans... she IS.

This takes the turtle dream of Sarah's to a whole new level of meaning. To me... that's not a stupid idea to necessarily abandon because of a Terminator with a baby and how it may sound.
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ScotWithOne_t
ScotWithOne_t
63. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 1:03 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 1:03 PM EST
If Cameron ever becomes pregnant, I will rate this show below T3. 2  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
HealingMindN
HealingMindN
64. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 4:11 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 4:11 PM EST
"If Cameron ever becomes pregnant, I will rate this show below T3. "
What would suck even worse is if Riley lives and is pregnant with JC's child in S3. That means the moron would be leader of the resistance doesn't even know how to use prophylactics.
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Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
65. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 5:50 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 5:50 PM EST
"If Cameron ever becomes pregnant, I will rate this show below T3. "
All the more reason TO explore this. You are a prime example of the prejudices I would want to explore on this show... something that BSG did poorly or not at all because the machines were never machines at all, but a new kind of engineered human.

Cameron being a CYBORG means she is part human right off the bat. The integration of machine and man is becoming more real right now. They are working on nanites and biomechanical computer systems. Human nerve cells can live on a computer chip CURRENTLY and it ain't sci-fi.

Cameron's child would be a melding of the two: Computer and certain machine/nanite systems from her, and the human components from John... and Allison Young. It has been discussed in Terminator lore long before TSCC came into being.

Cameron would be like a biomechanical incubator. The perfect Skynet device for keeping humans alive and under its control. That's why she was built so advanced.

The concepts sketchily brought up of PREGNANCY and LIFE CREATION on this very show would be explored through CAMERON herself.

Something considered a cold, heartless, killer, a Terminator, gets to CREATE and NURTURE life in its most precious and vulnerable state... and it's John Connor's own child.

Even Kasey, not knowing any better, stated to Cameron that she was inside Sarah at one time. This time Cameron gets first hand experience in reverse.

It could be a kind of catalyst that changes Cameron's viewpoints forever. How can she kill and TAKE life when she, herself, is going to be a mother? The new Sarah. Something she must come to grips with.

This would REALLY open up a can of worms for John Connor's future as a leader, so the guy has to man up and make sure JD never occurs for the sake of Cameron and the sake of his own baby's future. What more motivation would he need?
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MetalHunter
66. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 6:22 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 6:22 PM EST
"All the more reason TO explore this. You are a prime example of the prejudices I would want to explore on this show... something that BSG did poorly or not at all because the machines were never machines at all, but a new kind of engineered human.

Cameron being a CYBORG means she is part human right off the bat. The integration of machine and man is becoming more real right now. They are working on nanites and biomechanical computer systems. Human nerve cells can live on a computer chip CURRENTLY and it ain't sci-fi.

Cameron's child would be a melding of the two: Computer and certain machine/nanite systems from her, and the human components from John... and Allison Young. It has been discussed in Terminator lore long before TSCC came into being.

Cameron would be like a biomechanical incubator. The perfect Skynet device for keeping humans alive and under its control. That's why she was built so advanced.

The concepts sketchily brought up of PREGNANCY and LIFE CREATION on this very show would be explored through CAMERON herself.

Something considered a cold, heartless, killer, a Terminator, gets to CREATE and NURTURE life in its most precious and vulnerable state... and it's John Connor's own child.

Even Kasey, not knowing any better, stated to Cameron that she was inside Sarah at one time. This time Cameron gets first hand experience in reverse.

It could be a kind of catalyst that changes Cameron's viewpoints forever. How can she kill and TAKE life when she, herself, is going to be a mother? The new Sarah. Something she must come to grips with.

This would REALLY open up a can of worms for John Connor's future as a leader, so the guy has to man up and make sure JD never occurs for the sake of Cameron and the sake of his own baby's future. What more motivation would he need?"
Uhmmmmmmmmmmm...

She/it is a Machine! Metal! IT!
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KrelleK
67. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 6:45 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 6:45 PM EST
"You then hear Cameron stumble and fumble with a crash due to the sheet getting caught in the door. The end of the sheet then violently gets sucked into the bathroom through the door jam.

The next scene is of Sarah and Derek unpacking the truck and heading towards the kitchen door intercut with John throwing his clothes on in the bathroom and Cameron getting ready. Both are trying desperately to make it look like nothing untoward has happened.

Cameron looks at herself in the mirror and looks put upon. Her beautiful. lustrous hair, (so hard to get right), is a frizzy fright wig. John is throwing some hair gel on. He has so little hair to even bother with. He stops for a moment and looks at himself in the mirror introspectively at first and then his face brightens into a broad grin. He slows down and his panic starts to abate Last night was fabulous and today will be the start of something wonderful and new. He's in love with Cameron.

Cameron is still frantically trying to get her hair to calm down with her brush. She gets it about as good as she's going to without taking a shower. She starts examining the cleanliness of her teeth in the miiror. Then she breathes on her hand and sniffs it. And makes a very funny, gisgusted face. This is the first time she's ever had to deal with morning breath.

Derek and Sarah finally enter and see Cameron and John quietly sitting in the living room. John is sewing up Cameron's cheek wound and trying to act nonchalant. They are not exactly pulling it off as they look like they both slept in their clothes... and Cameron doesn't sleep.

Sarah: "So, what have you two early birds been up to?"

Together:
Cameron: "Cleaning the guns." John: "Helping Kasey."

Sarah looks at them weirdly and walks off. "I'm making pancakes if anyone wants some."

"
this is gold, this is gold, this is gold, become a writter on the show
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ClaudeFTW
ClaudeFTW
68. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 6:48 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 6:48 PM EST
"All the more reason TO explore this. You are a prime example of the prejudices I would want to explore on this show... something that BSG did poorly or not at all because the machines were never machines at all, but a new kind of engineered human.

Cameron being a CYBORG means she is part human right off the bat. The integration of machine and man is becoming more real right now. They are working on nanites and biomechanical computer systems. Human nerve cells can live on a computer chip CURRENTLY and it ain't sci-fi.

Cameron's child would be a melding of the two: Computer and certain machine/nanite systems from her, and the human components from John... and Allison Young. It has been discussed in Terminator lore long before TSCC came into being.

Cameron would be like a biomechanical incubator. The perfect Skynet device for keeping humans alive and under its control. That's why she was built so advanced.

The concepts sketchily brought up of PREGNANCY and LIFE CREATION on this very show would be explored through CAMERON herself.

Something considered a cold, heartless, killer, a Terminator, gets to CREATE and NURTURE life in its most precious and vulnerable state... and it's John Connor's own child.

Even Kasey, not knowing any better, stated to Cameron that she was inside Sarah at one time. This time Cameron gets first hand experience in reverse.

It could be a kind of catalyst that changes Cameron's viewpoints forever. How can she kill and TAKE life when she, herself, is going to be a mother? The new Sarah. Something she must come to grips with.

This would REALLY open up a can of worms for John Connor's future as a leader, so the guy has to man up and make sure JD never occurs for the sake of Cameron and the sake of his own baby's future. What more motivation would he need?"
Please, make a career from writing and somehow get into the TSCC writing team, WE NEED YOU!!!1~
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JMHthe3rd
JMHthe3rd
69. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 7:01 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 7:01 PM EST
"If Cameron ever becomes pregnant, I will rate this show below T3. "
Agreed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE
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KrelleK
70. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 7:01 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 7:01 PM EST
"I don't look at Cam as a "temporary" mate. I do want to see them get together and have to weather the storm of Sarah and Derek's prejudices.

Again, that means John and Cameron have to hook up before the show ends. It gives you time to explore their relationship and watch Cameron and John develop emotionally as a couple. They're BOTH struggling with how to respond to each other maturely.

Basically, you go from Cameron using deception to manipulate people to out and out honesty. Where the "I love you, John" declaration actually MEANS something to her. They aren't just words, but a deep belief.

And as John grows into his feelings for Cameron again he is willing to help her out of jams. He doesn't want to see her get needlessly hurt if he can help it. "
yeaj i kinda also would like to see them stand up proud, in the storm prejustice from Sarah and derek, and guess what might be the side that Charlie or Ellison would take in this, and even if they went and became pregnant, just got a bit of a wierd idea, how about cam getting pregnant, and end up in a documentary program of young mothers(there is one in Denmark, called the young mothers) and the whole idea is that no one else than the Connors, dixon, and Elliso knows the little secret of what Cam is.
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notty22
notty22
71. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 7:04 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 7:04 PM EST
"All the more reason TO explore this. You are a prime example of the prejudices I would want to explore on this show... something that BSG did poorly or not at all because the machines were never machines at all, but a new kind of engineered human. "
What you are suggesting is silly. This has been done, in Battlestar Galactica. Terminators were created to kill humans. They are a mockery of humanity, they wear our skin over a metal endoskeleton. They share nothing with us that makes them human. You throw the word prejudice around, we are at war with them. They are attempting genocide on the human race. They have not and would not but if they did experiment with female organs this would be a atrocity of the greatest magnitude. Do you advocate the killing of human prisoners to harvest these organs , so they can be cloned? Cameron is unique , she is a reprogrammed robot that looks female.
She may eventually turn out to be special, where she might show loyalty to the human race. But right now all she has ever done is follow her programming. Dollhouse is the type show that will better suit your fantasies.
The talk of pregnancy is the stuff that you find in MAD magazine.
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johnicon1
72. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 7:07 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 7:07 PM EST
I have to agree with notty here. I've said this a few times before, I'm all for the Jameron thing, but let's not go too far please. PLEASE!! GOD, MAKE IT STOP!! 0  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    

KrelleK
73. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 7:19 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 7:19 PM EST
"All the more reason TO explore this. You are a prime example of the prejudices I would want to explore on this show... something that BSG did poorly or not at all because the machines were never machines at all, but a new kind of engineered human.

Cameron being a CYBORG means she is part human right off the bat. The integration of machine and man is becoming more real right now. They are working on nanites and biomechanical computer systems. Human nerve cells can live on a computer chip CURRENTLY and it ain't sci-fi.

Cameron's child would be a melding of the two: Computer and certain machine/nanite systems from her, and the human components from John... and Allison Young. It has been discussed in Terminator lore long before TSCC came into being.

Cameron would be like a biomechanical incubator. The perfect Skynet device for keeping humans alive and under its control. That's why she was built so advanced.

The concepts sketchily brought up of PREGNANCY and LIFE CREATION on this very show would be explored through CAMERON herself.

Something considered a cold, heartless, killer, a Terminator, gets to CREATE and NURTURE life in its most precious and vulnerable state... and it's John Connor's own child.

Even Kasey, not knowing any better, stated to Cameron that she was inside Sarah at one time. This time Cameron gets first hand experience in reverse.

It could be a kind of catalyst that changes Cameron's viewpoints forever. How can she kill and TAKE life when she, herself, is going to be a mother? The new Sarah. Something she must come to grips with.

This would REALLY open up a can of worms for John Connor's future as a leader, so the guy has to man up and make sure JD never occurs for the sake of Cameron and the sake of his own baby's future. What more motivation would he need?"
and just kinda think of a talk that might go on in the connor house, if Sarah and derek are about to go on a mission(someday they have to face the truth) that either John or cammy ask in a seemingly throwaway fasion, ask if there are chances of people getting hurt, or if they themself is going up against some serious firepower, and those times sarah might say:not really they might take a huge sigh of relief, but maybe also wants to get it said before there begins to be signs of the pregnancy, and well the time she does say that something might be dangerous, the young couple has to tell sarah the truth. that they have feelings for each other, and therefore had ended up sleeping with each other, and well something unespected came out of it(Sarah is going to be a grandmother):-)
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jhowell928s
74. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 7:21 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 7:21 PM EST
Why can't they just fuck for the sake of fucking? Why do people want to make things so hard and complicated with talk of spiritual development jibberish and other associated nonsense? It's a fantasy TV show, stop injecting theories of psychobabble into it. All of this stuff is why people are so hung up about sex to begin with. "Don't stare at my X, don't put it there..." People wonder why they're so unhappy and unfulfilled. Instead of worrying about what your parents or priest will think, focus on what feels good, and then you'll see just how fulfilling sex can be. You'll learn to enjoy it for what it is and nothing else. 2  out of 7 found this valuable. Do you?    
Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
75. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 9:41 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 9:41 PM EST
"Why can't they just fuck for the sake of fucking? Why do people want to make things so hard and complicated with talk of spiritual development jibberish and other associated nonsense? It's a fantasy TV show, stop injecting theories of psychobabble into it. All of this stuff is why people are so hung up about sex to begin with. "Don't stare at my X, don't put it there..." People wonder why they're so unhappy and unfulfilled. Instead of worrying about what your parents or priest will think, focus on what feels good, and then you'll see just how fulfilling sex can be. You'll learn to enjoy it for what it is and nothing else."
That's sex for sex's sake. The carnal, the animal. What makes some of our shipper ideas better IMHO is that it does add feeling into it.

It's a more satisfying act because LOVE is included in the love making. And in my version of things... a new form of life is created in the process.

A child that seals the two worlds, man and machine, together. The child is a physical outcome of John and Cameron's love for each other. A symbol of hope.
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LuckiiBeckii
LuckiiBeckii
76. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 9:43 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 9:43 PM EST
"That's sex for sex's sake. The carnal, the animal. What makes some of our shipper ideas better IMHO is that it does add feeling into it.

It's a more satisfying act because LOVE is included in the love making. And in my version of things... a new form of life is created in the process.

A child that seals the two worlds, man and machine, together. The child is a physical outcome of John and Cameron's love for each other. A symbol of hope."
ugh, that sounds nauseatingly like something my Religion teacher said in class.

minus the machine part. XDD
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Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
77. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 9:54 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 9:54 PM EST
"What you are suggesting is silly. This has been done, in Battlestar Galactica. Terminators were created to kill humans. They are a mockery of humanity, they wear our skin over a metal endoskeleton. They share nothing with us that makes them human. You throw the word prejudice around, we are at war with them. They are attempting genocide on the human race. They have not and would not but if they did experiment with female organs this would be a atrocity of the greatest magnitude. Do you advocate the killing of human prisoners to harvest these organs , so they can be cloned? Cameron is unique , she is a reprogrammed robot that looks female.
She may eventually turn out to be special, where she might show loyalty to the human race. But right now all she has ever done is follow her programming. Dollhouse is the type show that will better suit your fantasies.
The talk of pregnancy is the stuff that you find in MAD magazine."
You weren't reading carefully because I did say BSG. However, the concepts of man and machine relations were easily whitewashed because the only machines involved were the old tin-can version of the Cylons that decided to create a race of advanced humans so they could reproduce. They were brainwashed into hating humans with a lack of moral center and love. They were like the Nazi Youth in Germany during WWII.

Yes, what Cameron originally did to Allison was horrible... what I'm suggesting in the creation of this chld is also horrible (the harvesting of Allison Young's eggs the make the Cameron clone complete)... from a human perspective, but this was all done BEFORE Cameron learned anything of value.

She was like a blank slate.

Many wars start and continue BECAUSE of prejudice. You don't know your enemy. It is also a lack of understanding, as Cameron (to start) didn't understand humans. And humans didn't understand machines.

It drove the madness after JD. Something John Connor is trying to stop, or should be trying to stop NOW.

In Terminator 2, Sarah chided Miles Dyson for his input in creating Skynet... he didn't understand what it was like to have something growing inside him; mother creating a life. All he knew was death and destruction, so it made him create death instead..

Now, with my idea that comes full circle.

Cameron only knows death and destruction, but not what it's like to having something growing inside her.

Now she does.
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Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
Cuckoo4CocoaPuffs
78. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 9:57 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 9:57 PM EST
"ugh, that sounds nauseatingly like something my Religion teacher said in class.

minus the machine part. XDD"
But, aren't they taking a religious tone with the show anyway? I'm not trying to be preachy, but putting this into context with the rules already set down by the writers.

And I'm actually not very religious myself.
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kingpin007
kingpin007
79. RE: Does a "Jameron" relationship mean John is Chaste or Not?
Jan 2 2009, 10:31 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 2 2009, 10:31 PM EST
Theres more to life than sex if you got bloody robots wanting to rip ya head off lol

I believe resistance wants John to have a girlfriend and a some what normal teenage life even though considering whats going on as this has affected him when hes much older and is making bad decisions in the future becasue of his empathy towards some terminators.
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