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Discussion: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
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valkyra_mo |
60. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 5 2009, 8:12 PM EDT
"If Derek would have known the Terminator was there, he would have at least gotten the first show off. "Derek was a very smart soldier....I have said before, and will say again here....he would not have walked so casually into that situation....Derek would have been hypervigilant in any military situation....that is how he survived so long. Yes I agree that it's not a terrible thing to have Derek killed, and obviously terminators DO kill even the best. It will definatly build John's character, but I don't like how it went down, never will like it. There was a lot that Derek could have done in S3 with John to help him mature, but now he has no male role model, no soldier, no one but a questionable terminator.....what's gonna happen now? not to mention Derek was Hot! way hotter than cameron! LOL 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Xynoxx |
61. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 5 2009, 8:13 PM EDT
@nyccine: I haven't read your exchange with the person you're addressing; but I'm certain you know how situations vary widely.Our CO used to say it's the one you don't see that gets you. And he was right. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
GermaricanMix |
62. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 5 2009, 8:16 PM EDT
"Taken all together they've eroded my interest in the show until the only thing keeping me going was people like Charley & Derrek. Now that they've been expunged, I really don't give a damn what happens. What does the series offer now? More disjointed plots? More characters walking on & off to illustrate that life is abrupt & brutal? If I want that kind of realism, I can read or watch the news any day. "One of the big problems of the character killing spree (I'm assuming Ellison eats it in the finale) is that the potential for viewer alienation is high. I now feel alienated from the plot. My favorite character was just taken out. I've been apologetic about this whole damn season, defending it to my friends who are harsh critics because I loved Derek (and John, but mostly Derek). Now I feel like there's no point to defend this show anymore. Another problem is that if they now introduce another character there'll be the 'I shouldn't get attached, they'll just kill him/her too' thought in the back of peoples heads. Killing characters can be shocking. Over do it and it can backfire like whoa. They should've stopped with Charley. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
TackDriver1956 |
63. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 5 2009, 8:20 PM EDT
| Post edited: Apr 5 2009, 8:39 PM EDT
"lol, what is realistic about this show?! its sci-fi man!"Science Fiction makes very specific changes to the rules of the Universe As We Know It, and then sticks to them. When the authors violate new laws of physics every week, it becomes fantasy, and undermines the writer/author's credibilty vis a vis their moral, political, and social messages as well as their entertainment value." Derek's skill as a soldier demands more respect than he was given. Fine, kill him off, but at least show some passable room-clearing technique. On second thought, there was still a lot of potential character development and history with Cameron to be shown. BOOOOOOOO! Charlie's death did not seem incongruous to me: Sarah didn't really trust Derek or Cameron, and ditched them. She had to get her cancer checked out. Charlie was John's last line of defense, and died buying John enough time to escape (though John returned after the explosion took out the attackers.) Charlie was a paramedic, not a soldier, and did an admirable job defending John's escape. Since we heard the firing pin fall when Derek pulled the trigger on Jesse, I believe she is still alive, which would make Derek's death even more of a loss, having never heard "her side" of the story. 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
ajhil |
64. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 5 2009, 9:07 PM EDT
After four pages of debate, the best justification that anyone has come up with for Josh's inspiration is that Derrek's death was realistic. How pathetic! No one has addressed - other than to criticize - the waste of time & talent, not to mention the heavy investment of viewer emotion in the character. I'll say again, it was a waste, stupid, needless & offensive. TSCC isn't (I used to think) a reality show or a news broadcast. It's a fictional drama, which means that it should adhere to different standards of causation and expectation. Final point: The Connor "team" is going to rescue a little girl from unknown abductors, when they know that terminators have been popping up unexpectedly almost anywhere. So they arm themselves with handguns? Give me a break! The thing that offends nycine and GermericanMix - and me too - is the sheer stupidity of this. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
DN38416akaCplHicks |
65. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 5 2009, 9:34 PM EDT
"After four pages of debate, the best justification that anyone has come up with for Josh's inspiration is that Derrek's death was realistic. How pathetic! No one has addressed - other than to criticize - the waste of time & talent, not to mention the heavy investment of viewer emotion in the character. I'll say again, it was a waste, stupid, needless & offensive.THANK YOU - so well said STUPIDITY - that's what gets shows cancelled oh and bad writing, which also equals loss of fan base Great point Ajhil about them walking in with only handguns - Derek , John and Sarah were both just almost killed - not likely and highly out of character for them to bring handguns. Seeing as they had no idea what they were walking into and knew it could possibly be a whole group of people. (sigh) bad writing.... 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
richardstevenhack |
66. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 5 2009, 9:46 PM EDT
| Post edited: Apr 5 2009, 9:49 PM EDT
This entire set of episodes feels "rushed" as if the writers were told to cram in as much as possible and not worry about consistency or even making sense.They had Winston put a transmitter in Sarah - then he gets ordered to kill her five minutes later. Except the transmitter didn't exist when the Winston episode was written. It was added when the writers realized they had written themselves into a corner. They were ordered to have the Kalibra group attack the Connors - except how could the Kalibra group even FIND the Connors based on the little information Winston extracted from Sarah? So the writers came up with the transmitter - even thought it made no sense to put a transmitter into someone you're going to kill anyway. Plus it allowed the writers to throw out the "cancer" crap again, which was Friedman's obsession during the whole series. Pathetically bad writing. The finale has a number of plot holes as well. It does have one really cool plot twist - Weaver impersonating Cameron - that is so good that the writer should be one of the TSCC writers. This is why I believe that episode description is legit - it was extremely well done. The TSCC writers are CAPABLE of doing really good stuff - when they pay attention to detail. It's the latter that they have problems with and have had problems with all season long. As for the Derek death, they let Jesse run for her life AND then had it up in the air as to whether Derek killed her - but they off Derek with no thought at all. That's Josh Friedman giving a big middle finger to the Derek fans because he wanted Kyle in the series, not Derek. It's that simple. Then they bring back Jesse in the finale to save John, utter some utterly meaningless words about him living with Derek's death (WTF does that mean?) then she walks off. That's another big finger from Josh Friedman to the fans who hated Jesse. 1 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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xdaxblessedx |
67. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 5 2009, 10:12 PM EDT
Derek HAD to die. The whole point of season 2 seems to be about Future John's reliance and perhaps even emotional connection to the machines, specifically Cameron. At the end of season 1 Cameron told John she was in love with him. That clearly unnerved everyone including John. Though out this season every main character aside from cameron was trying in some way to make sure John didnt get too comfortable with Cameron. But now with everyone dead and Sarah in jail the only thing john has left is the machine, Cameron! I love how well written and thought out this show is. I'm starting to think Mrs. Weaver may actually be a T-1000 sent back in time by future John! I know the T-1000 said it would not join john, when in the submarine, but maybe john was able to convince it, eventually. Telling Ellison that his life as well as her daughter's life may one day rest in John Henry's hands sounded more like a a friendly warning than a threat. I desperately hope we get a season 3 and a chance to watch the story unfold. 2 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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TackDriver1956 |
68. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 5 2009, 10:20 PM EDT
| Post edited: Apr 5 2009, 10:21 PM EDT
Richard, I don't think what we read is the real story.ESPECIALLY the part about Weaver impersonating Cameron...in a firefight, no less. All the T2 fans know what bullet hits on a T-1000 look like: loss of form, craters. Not at all what bullet hits look like on Cameron, or any other T-888. The "spoiler" covered a lot of ground, some of it in ways that I appreciated, but I'm not accepting it as Gospel. The transmitter was only necessary to give Sarah a new weapon: the AED (which by the way have safety circuits built in to prevent disrupting a correctly beating heart), and en excuse for the whole cancer and boob offering tear-jerker scene. Skynet v.0 = Kaliba could easily have found them via their cell phones, which are tracked by the network to hand-off calls to the correct towers. BTW, I'm much more torqued off about how they killed Derek. Charlie's was more in character. Do you find this valuable? |
t5000 |
69. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 12:45 AM EDT
"Well I for one agree with nyccine. I know people are all taken by how Derek died but I am appalled. My friends and I all agree that it was pointless and dumb and lacked any sort of respect for the character. Derek grew up with terminators He's had to care for a younger brother. Now all of a sudden he just casually walks around a corner when he knows a terminator is out there? Don't mind me guys, just taking a stroll. I don't buy it. I don't care how realistic it is. To me it looks like JF was just in love with the idea of it being shocking and amazing and so fresh without realizing it was a bad idea."I agree , this was doen in this manner purly for shock value, and to get rid of derek quickly , like you would someone you dont like. I also am begining to think josh is getting revenge on fans in these last few eps. I say revenge, but it just seems he is bitter about certain things and is blaming fans. 1. Riley_ wasnt a fan favorite, and she had a great death scene, went out fighting like no one thought she could. 2.Jesse_ most fans wanted to see her get killed, but john says let her go, and derek is going to kill her but muffs it, and all we see is finger on the trigger , so very unsatisfying for any fans who wanted to see her bite the dust. 3.Derek_ Derek wasnt just some soldier, he was a guerilla fighter since he was what 12- 14 ? and he survived for how many years in a desolate future with terminators everywhere. add to that he was kyle reese's brother ! johns Uncle! and riley gets a death scen 100 times better than derek? come on that isnt right. and it just made derek seem insignificant, and for all derek fans, they have to be disappointed in that . what if it had been cameron?/ boom half her head is gone , and leave her there and move on forget about it cause wow it was real and shocking. this was done also to hurt fans of derek fans of cameron and jameron are next. Do you find this valuable? |
TSCCfanSydney |
70. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 1:59 AM EDT
" And killing 3 characters before him is a good way to lessen the shock value."Yeah, I think I (and John Connor) got to experience more emotion over Riley's death foremost, followed by Charlie, then Derek whereas I feel that Charlie and Derek should have got him crying more then Riley, not less. Even a subdued rage turned to iron determination from John would have been better then 'Future John doesn't cry' 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
DavidC1 |
71. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 2:43 AM EDT
Whatever the hell the writers are trying to do, they are going ALL THE WAY. How successful that will be or whether that even matters is another question.
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T666 |
72. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 4:32 AM EDT
| Post edited: Apr 6 2009, 4:34 AM EDT
Gee.. I didn't know that we were all watching Terminator because it was "true-to-life". Boy, do I feel silly!
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Xynoxx |
73. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 4:41 AM EDT
"The thing that offends nycine and GermericanMix - and me too - is the sheer stupidity of this" Yes, I am, one of those who said it was realistic. What I did NOT say, was that it was an excuse/justification, OR that I liked the way it happened. I'm as pissed off as anyone. BUT this does not detract from the realism. As I and others have said, death in combat is one of the most piitless things you can imagine; plus a sense of terrible waste. Yes, this is fiction - after all, I have taken on some people on here, trying to nail that point home. However, even when writing fiction, one of the cardinal rules is that you must make your story BELIEVABLE No beef from me that sometimes, this entire season tried the patience of a saint! There is no question that some of those eps made you want to chew 10 carpets for breakfast, in sheer frustration, then look around for 10 more. However, much as one may not like the way Derek died, the writers got it right. Whether in the interests of the drama this was the way to go, that is, of course, the moot point. I would, for example, absolutely despise it, if they offed Cameron in a sort of the-T-must-die=canon BS. One hopes not; but if it happened, guess I'll look for 10 carpets to chew, and forget S3, even if it happened. "Resurrecting" Cameron won't do. She is the once and future. No other will do; as this would be a total negation of the premise. This would be like offing Delenn in B5, just for the hell of it. So I'm on the side of the dissatisfied, re Derek; but looking at it coldly, the death was very true to life, and follows the rule in fiction, that you make your story believable. Yes, one cuold argue that a pro like Derek should not have gone out like a rookie. Believe it or not, there are times when combat veterans have gone out like a light, while the greenest of rookies survive. You need luck out there too. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
Mindphlux |
74. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 4:50 AM EDT
"Also there is the lack of closure from the Connor family perspective - Derek just looks disloyal and dies in vain. And actually that is how the scene is portrayed. Sarah picks his pockets John doesn't even shed a tear and they move out.Yes of course, they should have sat down on the floor ... burning a candle and singing some songs together. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
Prez270 |
75. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 5:42 AM EDT
| Post edited: Apr 6 2009, 5:50 AM EDT
"After four pages of debate, the best justification that anyone has come up with for Josh's inspiration is that Derrek's death was realistic. How pathetic! No one has addressed - other than to criticize - the waste of time & talent, not to mention the heavy investment of viewer emotion in the character. I'll say again, it was a waste, stupid, needless & offensive.I echo this sentiment. I don't want an ultra-realistic show. I want an entertaining show. A certain level of relaism to prevent the show from becoming out-and-out ridiculous, sure, but Derrick's death sequence was a disaster. If I wanted realism, I'd complain how precision built, computer programmed killing machines can have such bad aim. I couldn't have imagined a more terrible scene involving a major character. Awful, simply awful. This is the single most hated thing the writers have done this year for me personally. Why bother exploring a character at all if he is to be dispatched so off-handedly? Again, this isn't real life - it's a work of dramatic fiction, which works by a set of different rules than real life. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Prez270 |
76. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 5:46 AM EDT
| Post edited: Apr 6 2009, 5:48 AM EDT
Deleted double post
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T666 |
77. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 7:09 AM EDT
Maybe this is just JF getting his Wrath-of-God complex on. Maybe he's just pissed that they are ending the show. Maybe he even found out that BAG was going to fly-the-coup and decided to take it out on his Character?And I agree, I definitely wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight (Untouchables reference). I'm pretty sure that a Terminator wouldn't be so stealthy that Derek couldn't get the drop on him first. I mean, come on, didn't we all know as soon as the camera suddenly cut to him upstairs that he was a goner? Maybe JF will go ahead and kill off John Connor... you know, for the shock value. Now that would be brilliant! Disclaimer: This post was mostly written in sarcasm Do you find this valuable? |
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Xynoxx |
78. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 7:10 AM EDT
"Again, this isn't real life - it's a work of dramatic fiction, which works by a set of different rules than real life."Good, dramatic fiction is a mix of both. This mix requires a very fine touch.Too much of one over the other can lead to disaster. Not everyone gets it right all the time. Ironically, I've had tussles with those who bang on about the machines, why they can't do that, can't feel that, can't have emotions because. because, because. These people tend to want hardcore "realism". Machines should be "toasters" fiction or no - because, because, because. As I've said, it requires a very fine touch to get that mix right and...you can't please all of the people, all of the time. Life's a bitch - for both writers, and fans. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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T666 |
79. RE: Toni Graphia on Derek's Death
Apr 6 2009, 7:11 AM EDT
| Post edited: Apr 6 2009, 7:35 AM EDT
Yeah... my question is: Is it possible to "Jump the Shark" on the second to last episode?True to life or not, Derek going out like that conflicts with the reality that exists in the context of the show. TSCC created a certain formula and mythology (for lack of a better term). People find pleasure in finding things out when they make sense. People, at least subconsiously know when something is amiss. This is why everyone is pissed off about how they took out Derek. I'm sure they were pressed for time in these last two episodes, but that's hardly an excuse. I mean. we've forgiven a lot of things they've pulled out of their @$$ this season, but they set Derek up on a pedestal and then suddenly he's just a tool. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
