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Discussion: Terminators are Androids not CyborgsReported This is a featured thread

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Munter
Munter
80. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 7:42 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 7:42 PM EDT
"
@Munter: it all depends on Skynet's interpretation of the term "cyborg"."
True........but I thought we were discussing our (human) interpretation of 'cyborg'

Just saying is all.

.
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CamDer
CamDer
81. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 7:43 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 7:43 PM EDT
"True........but I thought we were discussing our (human) interpretation of 'cyborg'

Just saying is all.

."
Apparently not.......
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tk1000
tk1000
82. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 7:43 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 7:43 PM EDT
"And a complete artificial human-like organism, but completely biological (like the Blade Runner "Machines'), is a human, cyborg or a android? :P"
is a cylon :P
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CamDer
CamDer
83. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 7:44 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 7:44 PM EDT
"is a cylon :P"
Cylons are from BG, right?
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Munter
Munter
84. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 7:46 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 7:46 PM EDT
"is a cylon :P"
Or a 'replicant'

.
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Aaronalxzdr
85. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 7:49 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 7:49 PM EDT
"Cameron is a cyborg because a significant part of her AI implements a human (Allison) neural network . "
There's nothing in any of the episodes to support your assertion, Timeloop.

From a theatrical perspective it would have made sense to map Alison's brainwaves (or synapses) and apply them to Cameron's chip. That would have made "AIP" ep. more believable as opposed to Cameron having Alison's memories solely from a lengthy interrogation.
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CamDer
CamDer
86. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 7:50 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 7:52 PM EDT
"There's nothing in any of the episodes to support your assertion, Timeloop.

From a theatrical perspective it would have made sense to map Alison's brainwaves (or synapses) and apply them to Cameron's chip. That would have made "AIP" ep. more believable as opposed to Cameron having Alison's memories solely from a lengthy interrogation."
*sigh*
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intrepid
intrepid
87. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 7:52 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 7:59 PM EDT
The original question was about classifications; Does a Terminator fall under android or cyborg.

A replicant can be classified as an android if you are referring to the book, in the film they are a artificially constructed human, made organically, so can no longer be considered an android.
The same could be said of the human form Cylons from BSG.

The problem arises from the fact we are trying to classify something that only exists in the imagination of the writer and not in reality, and dealing in terminology that inadequately describes it.

Cyborg was always originally used to describe someone who has had organs or limbs replaced with their mechanical analog, usually so they can still function normally or to enhance performance.
But they were always human to start with.
This precludes Terminators falling under the classification of cyborg because they were never human or alive in the biological sense to start with.

Android (male) or Gynoid (female) are the descriptive terms for a robot that is intentionally made to appear human in form.
A close representation was all that was required for a robot to be considered an android, so even if the skin was still made of unyielding metal it was still considered an android

The problem with Terminators, is that when dealing with Endo's, the Terminator's natural state, it falls under the classification of a robot because while humanoid in shape, it was never intended to appear human.
The sticky point is when they are in infiltration mode and have an organic cover placed over their Endo's to appear human.
In that form, they can be considered an android because while still a robot they now appear to be human.
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IvyMike
IvyMike
88. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 7:53 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 7:55 PM EDT
"@IvyMike - I meant the physical starting point ie. a human (or organism) to be physically modified, not just the blueprints of the design ie. Allison

@Veran - Surely a cyborg is a symbiosis of organic and artificial entities that depend on each other to function, that is, to exist..........not just a creation to perform a mission.

@Deadpool - Cyborg does sound better than Android

."
Yes I know that's what you meant; what I'm asking though is that is it just the biological component of a cyborg that makes it a cyborg?

Let's take the neuron experiment from the other direction; and take the position that Cameron isn't a cyborg (meatsuit notwithstanding). If we install a single biological neuron in to her cranium attached to her chip, is she now a cyborg? Is that all the defintion of a cyborg entails? if so, the definition is IMO arbitrary and not very interesting.
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Aaronalxzdr
89. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:01 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:01 PM EDT
"I guess I'll try to answer seriously for a change...

I'd say Terminators are neither Androids nor Cyborgs.

From my understanding of the android in science fiction, and from its literal meaning, it is a strictly artificial construct; the living tissue overlay of a Termi thereby negates this classification.

A cyborg is usually an inherently organic entity that has been augmented; Termi's technically don't fulfill this criteria, either.

If I had to classify a Terminator, I'd simply call it an artificial organism; it has organic components, but is otherwise entirely an artificial construct. In fact, the only thing that makes it a biological entity, its skin, is of a manufactured and unnatural origin as well. So, Terminators can be called artorgs. That sounds great, doesn't it?"
If you base the argument on the definitions of the words android and cyborg (and leave out emotional attachment to any particular TV character), you'd have to admit Terminators (with or without skin) are closer to the android definition than cyborg.
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Aaronalxzdr
90. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:02 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:02 PM EDT
"Cylons are from BG, right?"
Right.
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CamDer
CamDer
91. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:03 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:03 PM EDT
"Right."
Ah, thank you for explaining. :)
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cp442
cp442
92. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:04 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:04 PM EDT
"If you base the argument on the definitions of the words android and cyborg (and leave out emotional attachment to any particular TV character), you'd have to admit Terminators (with or without skin) are closer to the android definition than cyborg."
Without skin, for sure, Android; the skin is really the only credible link to cyborg classification.
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Munter
Munter
93. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:04 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:04 PM EDT
"Yes I know that's what you meant; what I'm asking though is that is it just the biological component of a cyborg that makes it a cyborg?

Let's take the neuron experiment from the other direction and take the position that Cameron isn't a cyborg (meatsuit notwithstanding). If we install a single biological neuron in to her cranium attached to her chip, is she now a cyborg? Is that all the defintion of a cyborg entails? if so, the definition is IMO arbitrary and not very interesting."
Intrepid has just given a long and thorough def of androids and cyborgs (post 87), although I would stretch his def of 'cyborg' to include any naturally occuring living organism as the base of a cyborg.

To answer your current point I would say......No, that would not make Cameron a cyborg because she was never an organic living being to begin with.

.
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IvyMike
IvyMike
94. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:05 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:05 PM EDT
"There's nothing in any of the episodes to support your assertion, Timeloop.

From a theatrical perspective it would have made sense to map Alison's brainwaves (or synapses) and apply them to Cameron's chip. That would have made "AIP" ep. more believable as opposed to Cameron having Alison's memories solely from a lengthy interrogation."
It doesn't really matter how Cameron came to be Cameron; if she is just modelled after Allison or actually has some copy of Allison's mind in her chip.

John didn't realise that Cameron wasn't human until she survived what should have been a fatal shooting. The cop, crazy laptop guy, Jody and Rita the counselor (who'd I assume had some psychological training) had no inkling that CameronAlison wasn't anything other than a real human, albeit perhaps a little strange.

Silbermann, a psychiatrist, was only sure that Ellison was human after he stuck a knife in to Ellison's leg.

We are not in the habit of plunging knives in to the people we meet to determine if they are real, we only go by their behaviour. If Cameron has the ability to be so convincingly real, what exactly is the nature of that reality? Where does it come from?
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Aaronalxzdr
95. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:06 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:06 PM EDT
"The original question was about classifications; Does a Terminator fall under android or cyborg.

A replicant can be classified as an android if you are referring to the book, in the film they are a artificially constructed human, made organically, so can no longer be considered an android.
The same could be said of the human form Cylons from BSG.

The problem arises from the fact we are trying to classify something that only exists in the imagination of the writer and not in reality, and dealing in terminology that inadequately describes it.

Cyborg was always originally used to describe someone who has had organs or limbs replaced with their mechanical analog, usually so they can still function normally or to enhance performance.
But they were always human to start with.
This precludes Terminators falling under the classification of cyborg because they were never human or alive in the biological sense to start with.

Android (male) or Gynoid (female) are the descriptive terms for a robot that is intentionally made to appear human in form.
A close representation was all that was required for a robot to be considered an android, so even if the skin was still made of unyielding metal it was still considered an android

The problem with Terminators, is that when dealing with Endo's, the Terminator's natural state, it falls under the classification of a robot because while humanoid in shape, it was never intended to appear human.
The sticky point is when they are in infiltration mode and have an organic cover placed over their Endo's to appear human.
In that form, they can be considered an android because while still a robot they now appear to be human."
Well said, intrepid.
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Aaronalxzdr
96. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:11 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:11 PM EDT
"Without skin, for sure, Android; the skin is really the only credible link to cyborg classification. "
Also, skin tissue is routinely grown in labs. Experiments are being conducted where living tissue cells are grown around pre-shaped inorganic materials in the form of ears, noses, etc.

The underlying material isn't alive, only the tissue growing around it.

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Aaronalxzdr
97. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:12 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:12 PM EDT
"Ah, thank you for explaining. :)"
No problemo :)
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IvyMike
IvyMike
98. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:13 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:16 PM EDT
"Intrepid has just given a long and thorough def of androids and cyborgs (post 87), although I would stretch his def of 'cyborg' to include any naturally occuring living organism as the base of a cyborg.

To answer your current point I would say......No, that would not make Cameron a cyborg because she was never an organic living being to begin with.

."
...which takes us back to my original neuron replacement experiment: you're saying that as long as you start with an organic living being, whatever replacements you may make along the way then whatever you end up with is a cyborg. If not, then you have to come up with another definition of cyborg.
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Timeloop
99. RE: Terminators are Androids not Cyborgs
Jun 22 2009, 8:13 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 22 2009, 8:13 PM EDT
"....annnd, where do you base this "revelation" on? we all seen Cameron's chip, and last I recall, there were no squishy brain parts on it."
What is important is the behavior of the neural network and not whether it has "squishy brain parts".
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