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nyccine |
140. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 8:23 AM EDT
And this is why I so readily insult the lot of you. Statements like this aren't simply wrong, they betray a complete ignorance of even the fundamentals of economics. Theft is not a "competing business model". We, as a society, accept industries failing *when more efficient means of delivering the goods/services are created*; we don't cry for the death of the whaling industry because the good (means of lighting homes) was replaced by something more efficient (here, kerosine). We would not, however, have tolerated utter darkness due to free riders driving the market to extinction.That is the point; entertainment, like any good, cannot be produced without cost - and as we've long since passed the point of live performances being the primary, let alone only, method for displaying art, this makes your contention that distributors need to find some magical new method of distribution insulting to the intelligence; if it is created it can be converted to an electronic format and shared online, there *is* no work-around, and the companies are doing exactly what they need to do; zealously prosecute theft of IP in the court of law, just like any other industry would This is why it is covered by laws protecting copyright - and no, this isn't *debatable*; every first-world nation recognizes the need to protect intellectual property because that fosters an environment in which more people have incentives to create things we all benefit from - this notion is even enshrined in the US Constitution, in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8 ("To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.") It is understood by all but the piraters, it seems, that free riders drain the system and help destroy the incentives necessary to create; the more of you there are, the closer we come to destroying the incentives altogether. 0 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Alexsw |
141. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 8:32 AM EDT
Why I'm getting angry now???
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Zkyire |
142. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 9:19 AM EDT
Ahhh the US constitution.Pity it only applies in America, eh? =P Do you find this valuable? |
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Zable_Fahr |
143. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 1:10 PM EDT
"We, as a society, accept industries failing *when more efficient means of delivering the goods/services are created*"Yes. And a lot of people would argue that with the digital revolution this is exactly what has happened. A great many things can be created on your average home computer these days, and the actual delivering of a good couldn't be easier when you can just copy it instantly. That's why it's popular. And this is where we get to your basic economics, because this also turns the concept of supply and demand on its head: the supply is infinite, and that means the market value of a copy is just about zero. You wanna make movies? Great. Your problem then is that copies of them will be worthless, so if selling copies is how you plan to make your profit then you're in deep shit. It doesn't matter if the actual making of the movie cost you 200 bucks or 200 million, the market value of a copy of your infinite product is still zero. Getting the state to create an artificial shortage by granting you a monopoly on the production of said copies when every single computer in the world is a potential mass production facility is questionable. And when the actual maintaining of said monopoly *demands* the complete and total surveillance/logging of all digital communication then it's just ridiculous. What you have to do then is provide something more than just the copy. A nice package is one such thing, and something that will always have value to anyone with even a semblance of a collector mentality. Displaying your movie at a cinema is another. The viewing experience is different then, and seats and opportunity to view it are finite. That has market value, and is something you can sell. But whatever, I'm done with this discussion. You're an extremely arrogant and unpleasant person, to the point where talking to you is an act only a masochist might enjoy. 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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TXfan |
144. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 1:51 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jul 6 2009, 2:55 PM EDT
"QFT!! Nyccine, you are not going to get people to listen to your dissenting point of view by insulting them. This type of thing will turn off even those who agree with you. I agreed with some things you said, but am appalled by your condescending remarks towards those who do not share your view point. Calling people "slow", "dense", "pants-on head retarded" as Zkyire points out is irrelevant and does not add anything to your argument. It is a non sequitur to say that you can engage in name-calling because their arguments are sufficiently bad. You have not stated what is wrong with their reasoning with the above words, you are simply dishing out an insult. That is a BAD form of argumentation formally called an ad homenin , which literally means "to the man" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem If your argument is strong enough, it should be able to stand on its own merits. Ironically,an ad hominem is typically deployed when an argument is weak and the person uses it as a last ditch effort. Of course, calling someone "stupid" in no way invalidates a statement such as "the moon orbits the Earth"; you have to address the substance of the argument itself, not the person. You can make your point without degenerating into name-calling; if it has validity, it can stand on its own 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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#87 |
145. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 4:53 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jul 6 2009, 4:54 PM EDT
"QFT!!I think people stopped listening to this person along time again. Now it has just become a matter of writing something down, and seeing how angry nyccine gets at this point. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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tscc1000 |
146. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 7:27 PM EDT
"1) ...But whatever, I'm done with this discussion. You're an extremely arrogant and unpleasant person, to the point where talking to you is an act only a masochist might enjoy.1) +2) +3) I agree. Though nyccine might have some good points, he completely ruins this with his arrogant and insulting tone. I can't be bothered any longer by this. nyccine, sorry, but you did yourself the best disservice! 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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nyccine |
147. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 8:06 PM EDT
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominemI think you need to re-read that entry. Ad Hominem only occurs when *the basis* of the "argument" is the attack; something along the lines of "x says y, but why should we believe him since he is stupid/a liar/a hypocrite/an adulterer/a flack/whatever". The presence of insults does not an ad hominem make; I have always made the argument, then insulted the target for not getting it, or insulted the target, then explained why, but never has the insult been the argument, never has it been bona fide ad hominem. You might feel that including insulting language is in poor taste, but then some insist upon only serving graham crackers and distilled water for their parties - that's a personal preference - but it sure as hell isn't fallacious logic. And, if I may be so bold, I'd say my vitriol has been more than justified; I've explained, at length - and, on more than one point, repeatedly - the problems with the absurd notion that piracy actively *helps* advance the arts, and the frankly ridiculous analogies Zable is trying to draw between the Tragedy of the Commons and Market Efficiency, and at no point in this thread have any of you even shown the slightest hint of getting it; you're stuck on "I get shit for free", and it doesn't matter what evidence and reasoning is presented towards you, you're going to cling to it until the well runs dry. 0 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Cammynator |
148. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 8:13 PM EDT
So, will we really have to pay to use thepiratebay? Cus it doens't make much sense to pay for piracy...
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nyccine |
149. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 8:15 PM EDT
"Yes. And a lot of people would argue that with the digital revolution this is exactly what has happened."A lot of people would be lying to justify piracy. "Getting the state to create an artificial shortage by granting you a monopoly on the production of said copies" In order to foster innovation, the creator is always granted exclusive authority to distribute his or her creation; you decrying this as monopoly power is patently disengenuine and at this point your'e just being willfully ignorant; there is absolutely not a single economist or legal scholar arguing in the positive for the point you are trying to make, because it's simply dishonest. Human history has shown us time and again that without profit incentives the advancement of science and the arts grinds to a standstill, and introducing free riders to the system drains that progress - with enough people getting the good/service for free, and it goes away. "What you have to do then is provide something more than just the copy. A nice package is one such thing, and something that will always have value to anyone with even a semblance of a collector mentality. Displaying your movie at a cinema is another. The viewing experience is different then, and seats and opportunity to view it are finite. That has market value, and is something you can sell." This is just ridiculous - pirated copies are being sought out IN PLACE OF PHYSICAL REPRODUCTIONS AND DISPLAYS. This is why sales of all but the lowest of LCD entertainment has bottomed out; people are actively chosing to pirate the good online *instead of watching it at the theatre or buying the CD*, are you honestly claiming that producers stopped showing movies in theaters or selling CDs? This entire statement makes no sense whatsoever. Do you find this valuable? |
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nyccine |
150. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 8:16 PM EDT
"Ahhh the US constitution.Name your country, and I'll give you the link to the relevent copyright laws, as well as the relevent international treaties they've bound themselves to. Do you find this valuable? |
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TXfan |
151. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 8:32 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jul 6 2009, 8:36 PM EDT
"Ah...NO!!! Wrong! OMG, Have you ever taken a philosophy class about logical fallacies???? Like I said, the meaning is in the the phrase itself. It literally means "TO THE MAN" which means the attack is not on the substance of the argument, but on the person (ie, "you're dense") The point is YOU NEVER INSULT. That is the ad homenin. Someone maybe "stupid" but does that change the fact that he is right when he says "the Earth orbits the sun". Do you really not get the difference between attacking the argument versus attacking the person? You must always address the problem with the argument itself. Like I said before, it is a non sequitur to say you are free to insult if the argument made is bad. In other words the conclusion does not follow from the premise; your hurling insults does not address what is wrong with the argument they made! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic) This is not about whether you are right about the piracy issue, that is a different matter. The problem is you loaded some of your good points with logical fallacies that fall under the umbrella of personal abuse and it badly detracts from your other arguments. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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flygrrrrl |
152. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 6 2009, 8:57 PM EDT
"http://mashable.com/2009/06/30/breaking-the-pirate-bay-sold-for-7-8-million/Well, I signed up for Demonoid.com a few months ago. I couldn't believe they were open! Then I saw they were open the month after that. So, there still may be hope. Do you find this valuable? |
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nyccine |
153. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 7 2009, 7:22 AM EDT
| Post edited: Jul 7 2009, 7:32 AM EDT
"Ah...NO!!! Wrong! OMG, Have you ever taken a philosophy class about logical fallacies???? Like I said, the meaning is in the the phrase itself. It literally means "TO THE MAN" which means the attack is not on the substance of the argument, but on the person (ie, "you're dense")detracts from your other arguments. "Yup, sure did; it was required in my college as part of any degree program. You obviously haven't, or you weren't paying attention, because you're completely wrong. There is a three step process inherent to an ad hominem fallacy being committed: 1. Individual makes a claim 2. Opponent makes an attack on the claimant, irrelevent to the actual argument being made. 3. Opponent then claims that *because of attack in step 2*, therefore claimaint in step 1 is false. You can't leave out that third step; if the crux of the argument *is* the attack, then you have a fallacy. If not, then you have a casual insult. Again, you might feel including derisory comments is inappropriate, but it is *not* fallacious; with my previous statements, you can mentally edit the insults out - or hell, I could repost them without the insults - and you would find that the arguments are *still there*; if it were an ad hominem, this would not be possible. Yes, Virginia, there is a difference between a casual insult and an ad hominem, and if you can't figure it out then you're an embarassment to your professor. p.s. - I wasted all this time typing this, then decided to read the wiki link you provided, WHICH HAS THE SAME THING POSTED. Hilarious. Please re-read it; it's right there, in the Usage subsection, under "In Logic". 0 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Zkyire |
154. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 7 2009, 8:32 AM EDT
"Yup, sure did; it was required in my college as part of any degree program. You obviously haven't, or you weren't paying attention, because you're completely wrong. There is a three step process inherent to an ad hominem fallacy being committed:Regardless of that, making attacks on people is against the Wiki CoC. If we have to abide by it; so do you. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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TXfan |
155. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 7 2009, 10:26 AM EDT
| Post edited: Jul 7 2009, 4:24 PM EDT
"Yup, sure did; it was required in my college as part of any degree program. You obviously haven't, or you weren't paying attention, because you're completely wrong. There is a three step process inherent to an ad hominem fallacy being committed:And you are making my point here. And I am also addressing the way *you* specifically addressed people here. What you said would be true if you were saving the insults for merely the criticisms of the argument (which you also did at times, though that is in poor taste, but that's a different matter). You were not at all times just merely addressing their arguments in some of your statements; you were at times using insults to undermine anything further they said. At one point you begin "Holy crap, you're dense". Please explain how that helps advance the argument? Are you actually addressing the context of the argument there? What has been gained there? Look at what you said here- you can take it out and your arguments are still there. Hence, you are conceding that it is irrelevant to the conversation. It is at best a red herring. Regardless, it is a bad form of argumentation that does nothing to advance the point and is not relevant to the validity of the arguments of those being attacked. Not only that, but you lose your audience by such tactics. You are not going get people to listen. I am not going to argue further with you, because you seem determined to use personal attacks no matter what. You can rationalize it all you like, but all that tactic will do tick off the people, even those who otherwise agree with what you say-unless that is what you want. If so, good luck with getting people to truly listen to you 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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DavidB1111 |
156. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 7 2009, 11:58 AM EDT
Nyccine, get out of this thread while you're still sane. Please, for your own sake, get out. You will not win here. You are literally fighting a losing battle. Leave now, while your brain has not been destroyed by the madness here. :)Seriously, get the F&&% out. You're really doing it wrong! I mean, you're telling people something that A. They probably already know, and B. Don't give a Flying F&#$ about. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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tscc1000 |
157. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 7 2009, 1:55 PM EDT
"....^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Just this!!! Do you find this valuable? |
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DavidB1111 |
158. RE: OT: R.I.P The Pirate Bay
Jul 8 2009, 10:34 AM EDT
Anybody have other info on this? Anybody have anything to say? Anybody? Bueler, Bueler?
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