Location: Jesse Season 2

Discussion: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?Reported This is a featured thread

Showing 21 - 40 of 419  |  Show  posts at a time
Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 | Next > Last
intrepid
intrepid
20. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 20 2009, 10:46 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 10:46 PM EDT
I have a question that maybe a former member in the military can answer.

In the Navy a person who is in charge of a boat/ship is referred to as Captain even if they hold a rank below that of Captain.
My question is this; Does this also apply to the 2nd officer, are they always referred to as Commander even if they hold a rank below that?
Do you find this valuable?    
Mike70056
Mike70056
21. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 20 2009, 10:48 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 10:48 PM EDT
"I have a question that maybe a former member in the military can answer.

In the Navy a person who is in charge of a boat/ship is referred to as Captain even if they hold a rank below that of Captain.
My question is this; Does this also apply to the 2nd officer, are they always referred to as Commander even if they hold a rank below that?"
No. The title Captain includes non military ship owners, it is a singular title while commander is a military rank.
Do you find this valuable?    
Mike70056
Mike70056
22. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 20 2009, 10:49 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 10:49 PM EDT
"In the society of John Connors post-Judgement day resistance, rank is probably an amorphous hierarchy based on the force of ones personality, and tempered by the judgement of ones peers. Some tradition has been obviously preserved (the shellback ceremony), but only when commonly recognized by all parties in a given group.

As long as it was clear to each individual who was superior and who was subordinate, nomenclature would be unimportant. Tasks would be accomplished, responsability would be established and a chain of command would be apparent. No 'titles' would be neccessary."
This only works in small groups, it's limited for the same reasons that true communism is.
Do you find this valuable?    
intrepid
intrepid
23. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 20 2009, 10:50 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 10:50 PM EDT
"In the field, especially under fire, human beings will establish an impromptu rank structure, and stick to it, or perish. Those who posses true leadership will become apparent,and those who can manifest true loyalty will surround them. Those who can do neither will be culled by the scythe of natural selection.

In an extremely harsh environment, some soldiers who have greater 'needs' than others will possibly join the huge percentage of humans who no longer exist."
This was how “rank” was established in the army's of ancient Greece, the strongest best fighter and organiser was put in charge by his peers, it was only the leaders at the top who weren't.
Do you find this valuable?    
Mike70056
Mike70056
24. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 20 2009, 10:50 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 10:50 PM EDT
"I still prefer that world over one where a former veterinarian can become a heart surgeon..."
Are you saying that heart surgery in 2018 has gone to the dogs? =P
1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
bryan011
bryan011
25. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 20 2009, 11:03 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 11:05 PM EDT
"In the field, especially under fire, human beings will establish an impromptu rank structure, and stick to it, or perish. Those who posses true leadership will become apparent,and those who can manifest true loyalty will surround them. Those who can do neither will be culled by the scythe of natural selection.

In an extremely harsh environment, some soldiers who have greater 'needs' than others will possibly join the huge percentage of humans who no longer exist."
I'm sure they will. But militaries use rank, titles, uniforms, and symbols for a purpose. It's worked for thousands of years. A charismatic leader can rally men during an event, but to lead men in war takes a lot more. Especially this war.

The resistance needs something as a symbol, something to show unity. All I am saying is that disregarding the power of symbols, titles, uniforms, and ranks, things which have worked very well for an inpromtu system isn't going to hold together.

You don't always get to follow the charismatic leader. Sometimes the leaders are boring as watching paint dry. You follow them because they're your superior and you're their subordinate. The Resistance is fighting a war against extinction. They need discipline and part of that comes through titles and ranks with clear chains of command. Imptomptu rank structure may work well once, but what is equally as important as cohesion on the battlefield?

The cohesion of the unit for the other 99% of the time you don't spend in battle.

There's a reason why militaries are not democracies. You don't elect your military leaders and the grunt in the field may never see Connor but Connor is their commander and gives orders so you follow those orders.
1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    

Xynoxx
26. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 5:21 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 5:25 AM EDT
"Derek's rank was also screwy. Officers don't command squads. A Seargant or Staff SGT commands squads. Derek should have had a platoon. He probably should have been a captain, honestly and commanding a company with the time he has in the Resistance... and their, uh... insane casualties."

Good points. However, as you have rightly pointed out, high (or unexpected) casualties, can play havoc with rank. Sergeants in the field can end up commanding what's left of a company. It happens.

On elite units. Ranks tend to be very "loose" in tight-knit elite units. Non-officers can sometimes address officers by their first names, and vice-versa. These units tend to have such respect for each other that the trappings of rank become immaterial, especcially on missions. I can't speak for how the US military do it; but our (UK) units tend to be very fluid, and respect for each other remains supreme. At the level that these units operate,a captain (say) who is useless, would get short shrift, from all ranks.
Do you find this valuable?    
R.Daneel_Olivaw
R.Daneel_Olivaw
27. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 6:40 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 6:40 AM EDT
"This only works in small groups, it's limited for the same reasons that true communism is.
"
I disagree. In the civilain world, organizations the size of Microsoft and ExxonMobil operate without uniforms or rank insignia. But then capitalism, like war, is much more Darwinian than true communism.

People will respect power and results. When Connor's army kicks the terminators out of you city, you may believe that his is the command that will end the threat forever. Quality people will sign up for that.

I am not implying that Connor does not use a rank structure, but when assembling a force of fighters from different branches of the US military, the armies of other countries, and whatever civilians decide to join, a traditional rank structure may be passe.
Do you find this valuable?    
Enigma6482
Enigma6482
28. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 10:24 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 10:24 AM EDT
"The cohesion of the unit for the other 99% of the time you don't spend in battle.

There's a reason why militaries are not democracies. You don't elect your military leaders and the grunt in the field may never see Connor but Connor is their commander and gives orders so you follow those orders.
"
This is why everything fell apart on the Jimmy Carter. They refused to follow military protocol/command structure and their cohesion as a group completely fell apart (and so did the mission).
Do you find this valuable?    
The1Russter
The1Russter
29. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 11:26 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 12:31 PM EDT
"This is why everything fell apart on the Jimmy Carter. They refused to follow military protocol/command structure and their cohesion as a group completely fell apart (and so did the mission)."
That is exactly what happened. Great synopsis of the situation on board the sub. I would also say some of the crew members were also losing respect for John Connor. Jesse didn't lose hers until she was questioned by Cameron. Then she saw, from her point of view, how far Connor had gone in relying on the machines - or Cameron in particular. She then lost her faith in him and vowed to change things. But did she change them? Or ensure the future she had is the one she contributed in creating?

Edit: inserted missing word in sentence.
1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
Enigma6482
Enigma6482
30. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 11:34 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 11:34 AM EDT
"That is exactly what happened. Great synopsis of the situation on board the sub. I would also say some of the crew members were also losing respect for John Connor. Jesse didn't lose hers until she was questioned by Cameron. Then she saw, from her point of view, how far Connor had gone in relying on the machines - or Cameron in particular. She then lost her in him and vowed to change things. But did she change them? Or ensure the future she had is the one she contributed in creating?"
I think some of the crew just snapped in general (Deets being one of them).

From Jesse's POV she thought she was doing the right thing (even though she wasn’t); but you're right I think in the end she did the exact opposite of what she was trying to accomplish. By trying to drive a wedge (Riley) between John and Cameron she ended up pushing John even closer to Cameron b/c he truly did see at the end of season 2 that "humans will disappoint you", and she is the only one he can trust completely. Interestingly enough this was probably the best thing for him even though Jesse/Riley did put him and Cameron through a lot of anguish.
Do you find this valuable?    
bryan011
bryan011
31. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 12:02 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 12:02 PM EDT
"I disagree. In the civilain world, organizations the size of Microsoft and ExxonMobil operate without uniforms or rank insignia. But then capitalism, like war, is much more Darwinian than true communism.


"
MIcrosoft doesn't order its men and women into battle. Someone signing up to work at a civilian company doesn't expect to have to kill someone, either. It's not possible to compare a civilian company to a military post JDay where chances are very good you will die. The casualties the Resistance seems to take would be, simply put, incredible by today's standards.

With people dying in droves you need those symbols, titles, ranks, etc. to keep them focused. A rank structure is passe? You've just doomed your army. Either you enforce discipline and a hierarchy with rank or with fear. Your "grunt" is going to attack Position X because you either order him/her to, or because you have a gun to his back. As soon as rank becomes "passe" that means your military has become an organization of equals, a democracy.

You're now just a walking corpse and its only a matter of time before you die.

There is a reason why militaries work the way they do. Civilians join the military all the time. Rank is hardly passe. The armies of other countries all use rank.

Hell, the military may be the only institution left which is organized and capable of giving the survivors of the nuclear war a purpose.

But as soon as rank and titles no longer matter your military is a demcoracy, discipline degenerates, and you lose. It's pretty simple. If democracy in the military worked the military would be democratic. It's not. The rank structure might be a little off, like having 28ish year olds like Jesse as O-4/5s, but we saw what happened with the "passe" approach on Carter.
1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    

Xynoxx
32. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 12:06 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 12:24 PM EDT
Jesse was wrong in so many ways - gross negligence, conduct unbecoming, dereliction of duty, the list is long. In the kind of situation we would expect humantiy to be in the TSCC scenario, Jesse would be lucky toget off with a Court Martial, almost certainly followed by a firing squad.

She lost control, and allowed her prejudice to screw an important mission that might have saved humanity's backside. Instead, she lost the Resistance its prized submarine asset, and totally buggered the mission.

Imagine a situation in WWII, and the British Army had word that Rommel wanted to put his forces at our disposal, and a team from the LRDG was despatched to rendezvous with Rommel. Then the officer in command turns out to have so hated Germans, that instead of thinking of the whole situation and what might be saved, goes ape, opening fire and Rommel says bugger off. Then the war continues even more ferociously. I think that officer, if he survived would have been for the chop.

Jesse fled through time to compound her felony.
2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
bryan011
bryan011
33. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 12:12 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 12:12 PM EDT
Also, if you're following someone from force of personality all you've done is create a cult of personality. Those under the leader think they're infallible, like Connor, and when they disappoint (like after the Carter and Cameron's "it's the same as talking to John") you have people create problems like Jesse did.

They might join because they see in a leader a leader and a charismatic person, but unless that person is self-delusional that leader needs to understand that they would need a clear hierarchy to keep cults of personality from developing and a breakdown in discipline and morale when that leader inevitable screws up.
Do you find this valuable?    
ninelives888
ninelives888
34. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 12:19 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 12:19 PM EDT
"
Jesse fled through time to compond her felony."
It seems Cameron has done the same, maybe twice. Some think she has killed JC in the future and escaped to the past, regardless, she has now abandoned her mission of protecting JC and compounded that by jumping through time.
Does Cameron have a military designation ? Remember Jesse was trying to save John Connor, and AEM said that maybe she succeeded, (John falling in to his mother's arms).
Do you find this valuable?    

Xynoxx
35. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 12:25 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 12:30 PM EDT
"It seems Cameron has done the same, maybe twice. Some think she has killed JC in the future and escaped to the past, regardless, she has now abandoned her mission of protecting JC and compounded that by jumping through time.
Does Cameron have a military designation ? Remember Jesse was trying to save John Connor, and AEM said that maybe she succeeded, (John falling in to his mother's arms)."
Change your sodding record, mate. If you don't understand the story, say so. We'll understand.
Do you find this valuable?    

kaotic
36. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 12:35 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 12:42 PM EDT
"It seems Cameron has done the same, maybe twice. Some think she has killed JC in the future and escaped to the past, regardless, she has now abandoned her mission of protecting JC and compounded that by jumping through time.
Does Cameron have a military designation ? Remember Jesse was trying to save John Connor, and AEM said that maybe she succeeded, (John falling in to his mother's arms)."
Nice job bringing up something completely off topic.

Not the same at all... Cameron left to join Weavers resistance... IE. Helping John Connor. (talk about going off topic)

Cameron, I don't think had a designation/rank.

Well she might have been trying to 'save' (i use that word loosely) John; so he would see metal differently, but that failed horribly. (more off topic stuff)

AEM's opinion means nothing since the show showed us otherwise. (off topic again)

1) Would I ever kill Cameron, or send her away? "No."
2) He jumps to the future for Cameron's chip...

These examples shows that Jesse's actions had Zero effect what he feels, or see for Cameron (JF, John loves Cameron- paraphrased). This might be different for other machines, though. (off topic again)
1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
ninelives888
ninelives888
37. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 12:45 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 12:51 PM EDT
"Nice job bringing up something completely off topic.

Not the same at all... Cameron left to join Weavers resistance... IE. Helping John Connor. (talk about going off topic)

Cameron, I don't think had a designation/rank.

Well she might have been trying to 'save' (i use that word loosely) John; so he would see metal differently, but that failed horribly. (more off topic stuff)

AEM's opinion means nothing since the show showed us otherwise. (off topic again)

1) Would I ever kill Cameron, or send her away? "No."
2) He jumps to the future for Cameron's chip...

These examples shows that Jesse's actions had Zero effect what he feels, or see for Cameron (JF, John loves Cameron). This might be different for other machines, though. (off topic again)"
What do you mean off topic, are you Cameron's defense lawyer. My comment was a reply to someone who brought up military law, his view on Jesse's actions in a thread titled simply what was Jesse's rank. .
And a writer for the show feels differently, he feels Jesse succeeded in showing John about humanity, which something Cameron clearly fails at and maybe Sarah couldn't do alone.
edited:
0  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    

kaotic
38. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 12:54 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 12:54 PM EDT
"What do you mean off topic, are you Cameron's defense lawyer. My comment was a reply to someone who brought up military law, his view on Jesse's actions in a thread titled simply what was Jesse's rank. So stop trying to be a moderator and stifling other people inputs , which your getting famous for."
"It seems Cameron has done the same, maybe twice. Some think she has killed JC in the future and escaped to the past, regardless, she has now abandoned her mission of protecting JC and compounded that by jumping through time.

OFF-TOPIC

"Does Cameron have a military designation ?" OFF-TOPIC

" AEM said that maybe she succeeded, (John falling in to his mother's arms)." OFF-TOPIC

None of this has anything to do with what has been posted in this thread.

I'm famous? You brought up nothing about Military Law, I guess Cameron's rank is related in a very small way.
1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    

kaotic
39. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 1:04 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 1:04 PM EDT
"Also, if you're following someone from force of personality all you've done is create a cult of personality. Those under the leader think they're infallible, like Connor, and when they disappoint (like after the Carter and Cameron's "it's the same as talking to John") you have people create problems like Jesse did.

They might join because they see in a leader a leader and a charismatic person, but unless that person is self-delusional that leader needs to understand that they would need a clear hierarchy to keep cults of personality from developing and a breakdown in discipline and morale when that leader inevitable screws up."
I was actually thinking about cults, and John Connor earlier today.

I wondered how many people would have believed he was a Messiah. I think there's a chance that even some of his own Resistance members saw him that way, and like you said it could create a problem when he screwed up.
1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 | Next > Last

Related Content

  (what's this?Related ContentThanks to keyword tags, links to related pages and threads are added to the bottom of your pages. Up to 15 links are shown, determined by matching tags and by how recently the content was updated; keeping the most current at the top. Share your feedback on Wetpaint Central.)