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Discussion: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?Reported This is a featured thread

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bryan011
bryan011
40. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 1:04 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 1:04 PM EDT
"What do you mean off topic, are you Cameron's defense lawyer. My comment was a reply to someone who brought up military law, his view on Jesse's actions in a thread titled simply what was Jesse's rank. .
And a writer for the show feels differently, he feels Jesse succeeded in showing John about humanity, which something Cameron clearly fails at and maybe Sarah couldn't do alone.
edited:"
The discussion on rank expanded to become one about the merits of having a rank structure and established hierarchy. Since this was about Jesse's rank and we're talking about the merits of having said hierarchy it sort of goes hand in hand with how a loose chain of command led to the degradation on Carter. Carter was the only time we really got to see a chain of command. The only other time was with Bedell and Derek.
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Schmacky
Schmacky
41. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 1:13 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 1:13 PM EDT
"Carter was the only time we really got to see a chain of command. The only other time was with Bedell and Derek."
In which both cases, they didn't follow the orders.

Bedell and Derek went against Connor's orders even though they saved those people.

Jesse went against the Captain's orders even though she didn't know nor could confirm his secret orders.
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ninelives888
ninelives888
42. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 1:23 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 1:24 PM EDT
This has been brought up before, in discussing the sub, Jesse, Queeg. Ok we all know Cameron seems secretive and completative sometimes. In debriefing Jesse especially. Jesse felt maybe isolated from speaking to JC, My point is , maybe Queeg wasn't under orders from JC at all. Maybe the course change and meeting was set up by Cameron, and she directed, programmed Queeg. Jesse was the highest ranked human , and the Sub course change was all surprise news to her, and the only person who debriefed her was a distant Cameron. Do you find this valuable?    
bryan011
bryan011
43. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 2:05 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 2:05 PM EDT
"In which both cases, they didn't follow the orders.

Bedell and Derek went against Connor's orders even though they saved those people.

Jesse went against the Captain's orders even though she didn't know nor could confirm his secret orders."
What were Derek's order with Bedell anyway?

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The1Russter
The1Russter
44. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 2:10 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 3:20 PM EDT
"I was actually thinking about cults, and John Connor earlier today.

I wondered how many people would have believed he was a Messiah. I think there's a chance that even some of his own Resistance members saw him that way, and like you said it could create a problem when he screwed up."
@ Kaotic, Your comment made me think what kind of leader would John Connor be if he didn't know his fate, compared to the John Connor we saw in T2 and TSCC who knows his fate? And how would the resistance respond to either one? I know its off topic, especially when I created this thread, but I've yet to see a thread stay on topic anyway. Maybe someone can answer and include comments on ranks in their answer. :)
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Schmacky
Schmacky
45. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 2:11 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 2:11 PM EDT
"What were Derek's order with Bedell anyway?

"
They were to sit and wait and report.

They didn't sit and wait. They planned a rescue mission.
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Xynoxx
46. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 2:24 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 2:40 PM EDT
This is a thread where we have been having reasonable discussions. Then along comes someone with the deliberate intention of derailing it, so that the entire thing descends into a flame war. I urge all on here not to be goaded. I refuse to be goaded.

Therefore...

MODS!!!!
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bryan011
bryan011
47. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 4:10 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 4:10 PM EDT
"They were to sit and wait and report.

They didn't sit and wait. They planned a rescue mission."
I think the two situations really aren't that comparable. You had mutiny on one side and on the other you had a single soldier sacrifice himself to save 40 people. Plus the Ogre, if I recall, was going to attack the bunker away. One's taking the initiative due to changing battle conditions and one's mutiny.
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LiquidMetal
48. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 4:14 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 4:22 PM EDT
Jessie was an Australian resistance sailor with the rank of Commander. While on board the Jimmy Carter her rank was elevated to Executive Officer in order for her to be in charge of the mission including Captain Queeg. Jesse had the power to relieve Queeg of command.

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LiquidMetal
49. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 4:17 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 4:25 PM EDT
"I have a question that maybe a former member in the military can answer.

In the Navy a person who is in charge of a boat/ship is referred to as Captain even if they hold a rank below that of Captain.
My question is this; Does this also apply to the 2nd officer, are they always referred to as Commander even if they hold a rank below that?"
Officer Ranks:
O-1 Ensign
O-2 Lieutenant Junior Grade
O-3 Lieutenant
O-4 Lieutenant Commander
O-5 Commander
O-6 Captain
O-7 Rear Admiral (lower half)
O-8 Real Admiral (upper half)
O-9 Vice Admiral
O-10 Admiral
O-10 Fleet Admiral (wartime rank)

A Captain commands a ship at sea but can be outranked by an O-7 and above. In this case Jesse, being a Commander was placed in charge of obtaining the box, but she still outranked Queeg on this mission since the mission took precedence. It's debatable whether Queeg was really following JC's orders. Normally a Captain will remain in charge even when higher ranking officers are on board.

The only exception to this is when an Admiral transfers command of the fleet to the Captain's ship.
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Enigma6482
Enigma6482
50. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 4:32 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 4:32 PM EDT
"MIcrosoft doesn't order its men and women into battle. Someone signing up to work at a civilian company doesn't expect to have to kill someone, either. It's not possible to compare a civilian company to a military post JDay where chances are very good you will die. The casualties the Resistance seems to take would be, simply put, incredible by today's standards.

With people dying in droves you need those symbols, titles, ranks, etc. to keep them focused. A rank structure is passe? You've just doomed your army. Either you enforce discipline and a hierarchy with rank or with fear. Your "grunt" is going to attack Position X because you either order him/her to, or because you have a gun to his back. As soon as rank becomes "passe" that means your military has become an organization of equals, a democracy.

You're now just a walking corpse and its only a matter of time before you die.

There is a reason why militaries work the way they do. Civilians join the military all the time. Rank is hardly passe. The armies of other countries all use rank.

Hell, the military may be the only institution left which is organized and capable of giving the survivors of the nuclear war a purpose.

But as soon as rank and titles no longer matter your military is a demcoracy, discipline degenerates, and you lose. It's pretty simple. If democracy in the military worked the military would be democratic. It's not. The rank structure might be a little off, like having 28ish year olds like Jesse as O-4/5s, but we saw what happened with the "passe" approach on Carter."
FREAK'N EXACTLY!!!!
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Enigma6482
Enigma6482
51. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 4:41 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 4:41 PM EDT
"They were to sit and wait and report.

They didn't sit and wait. They planned a rescue mission."
Sad to say it; but when you choose to disobey orders you will either be a zero or a hero. In Bedell's case, he gambled in disobeying orders (and in turn saved Connor's life and was a hero). In Jesse's case, she made the wrong decision and completely screwed everything up (therefore becoming the zero and a war criminal).
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Schmacky
Schmacky
52. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 5:10 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 5:13 PM EDT
"I think the two situations really aren't that comparable. You had mutiny on one side and on the other you had a single soldier sacrifice himself to save 40 people. Plus the Ogre, if I recall, was going to attack the bunker away. One's taking the initiative due to changing battle conditions and one's mutiny."
I'm not comparing the actions. I'm comparing what I said.. that they both went against orders.

What was the reasoning for going against orders? It's the same. They felt what they had to do was for the benefit of the Resistance.

Derek and Bedell and Kyle went against Connor's orders to save 40 people, their thinking was a benefit to the Resistance and saving lives..

Jesse went against orders to protect Serrano Point from an unknown Terminator, her thinking was a benefit to the Resistance and the lives on her boat.

Good or bad, right or wrong - they both went against orders for (what they believed) the benefit of the Resistance.
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Enigma6482
Enigma6482
53. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 5:20 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 5:20 PM EDT
"I'm not comparing the actions. I'm comparing what I said.. that they both went against orders.

What was the reasoning for going against orders? It's the same. They felt what they had to do was for the benefit of the Resistance.

Derek and Bedell and Kyle went against Connor's orders to save 40 people, their thinking was a benefit to the Resistance and saving lives..

Jesse went against orders to protect Serrano Point from an unknown Terminator, her thinking was a benefit to the Resistance and the lives on her boat.

Good or bad, right or wrong - they both went against orders for (what they believed) the benefit of the Resistance."
Yes, but just b/c they both believed they were "right" doesn't make Jesse's decision any less wrong. Just b/c you think what you’re doing is the right thing doesn’t necessarily make it the “right” thing to do.
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bryan011
bryan011
54. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 5:28 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 5:28 PM EDT
Hm... perhaps. However, Derek and Bedell and Kyle were different. They were putting out those little bomb things, right? One went off early which led to the chain of them going off and then Kyle and Connor got captured. I would say that is initiative- where you see an objective not originally outlined but which can lead to great *benefit*... saving Connor, for example.

In Jesse's case she had orders to pick up the box and return the box.

She never said she never believed the orders were not valid or from Connor. I hate to mention it because it might knock the thread off... but she shot Queeg because he wouldn't share those orders and in her mind was acting "bad" so she scuttled the ship.

One situation you have them disobeying orders to take the initiative and in the second you have Jesse disobeying orders because she thinks, not knows, thinks, something is wrong. But that really isn't the point here. Because the breakdown occurred with Dietze and Goodnow and the third guy who disobeyed orders to open the box. Modern submariners most likely would never do somthing like that. Yes, these people are a scraggly band of La Resistance, but that goes back to the main point: a submarine by its nature requires an elite crew to crew it. A surface warfare officer can be assigned to any surface ship but will never ever get stationed on a submarine. Submariners need extensive training and evaluations to make sure they wont go loco. Obviously that isn't going to happen now, however, the Resistance should have been using former military or at least making absolutely sure its elite sailors on the submarine could hack it.

(continued)

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bryan011
bryan011
55. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 5:28 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 5:28 PM EDT
(continuation)

If Connor just picked a group of Army grunts to man the submarine he's an incompetent fool. the group of sailors on the sub needed to be dedicated to the submarine; all they do is crew the sub. They don't go off on patrol like Jesse did, they don't fight in ground battles. They maintain the sub, train on the sub, and sail it away. They need to be a tight group, well-trained, and well-disciplined. Event hough submarine discipline is not as strict as the surface navy (and even then there are variations- fighter squadrons have lax discipline compared to surface warfare community) there needs to be a clear indication of Person A being in charge, Persion B being their second, and Persons C, D, and E in charge of Departments 1, 2, and 3, and everyone else arranged into those departments, answering to C, D, and E, and then them reporting in.

Of course that's sort of discounting the fact that the submarine looked like it was being magically crewed by maybe two dozen people.... (I'd insert a wtf expression here)
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Schmacky
Schmacky
56. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 5:34 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 5:34 PM EDT
"Yes, but just b/c they both believed they were "right" doesn't make Jesse's decision any less wrong. Just b/c you think what you’re doing is the right thing doesn’t necessarily make it the “right” thing to do. "
That's not the point of the post. Nor is it what I said.
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TheTurk
TheTurk
57. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 6:35 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 6:35 PM EDT
To answer the original question, Jesse Flores was promoted to Lt. Commander (O4) just before the beginning of the mission you saw in "Today is the Day" parts one and two. And by the ragged, edge of starvation state of the resistance, the submariners were the elite. They got actual fresh grown food from Australia and reasonably clean and intact clothes to wear and got to sleep and take showers in a climate controlled space every night-- almost unimaginable luxuries for the inhabitants of North America in 2027. Do you find this valuable?    

Xynoxx
58. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 6:40 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 6:47 PM EDT
I don't understand why some people still appear not to understand what Jesse did. She did nothing to "benefit" the Resistance. Benefit to the Resistance would have meant following her orders and carrying out the mission. She was a freaking Commander ,for pete's sake. That is not small rank. She was in comamnd of that team. She behaved like a naval rating, giving in to paranoia, and descending into muntiny with her suppossedly elite team who "would go anywhere". She lost it, and lost a priceless sub. into the bargain. How in God's name is that of "benefit"? She was the worst kind of senior officer, allowing her spooked crew to turn her into a mutineer.

It is highly likely that that Jesse's actions probably led to disaster for the Resistance, forcing Connor to send people back - including Cameron to protect his younger self -to change the outcome, Even the LMT (whom we all assume must have been Weaver) had to come back to fix things in the future she left. So it is quite likely that this single act of rampant stupidity and severe dereliction of duty by Jesse, actually cost (or was on the verge of codting) the Resistance the war. Nice "benefit".

Then to make matters worse, she ilegally scoots through time, to try and "save" young JC, ("from her - from, IT!") who without his protector, would probably wind up dead. And in a warped plan to doso, quite unscrupulously used a starving tunnel rat, whom she later murdered..

Nice going, Jese.
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Schmacky
Schmacky
59. RE: What was Jesse's rank in the resistance?
Oct 21 2009, 6:41 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 6:41 PM EDT
Thanks Zack. Do you find this valuable?    
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