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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
60. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 2 2009, 8:30 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 2 2009, 8:30 PM EST
"T4 hasn't made money. It's lost money. And there's at least as much hate for McG's version as there is praise. Not good.

"
I'm a little fuzzy on the numbers. What did T4 actuall make, and not the how it gets sliced up...I remember Eddie Murphy's Coming To America: it made a LOT of money but TPTB pencil-whipped everyone else not in their inner circle to justify keeping their money!

That the entertainment industry is is a tizzy, and several major co's aren't doing well, sounds a lot like the bank bailout fiasco. I just don't trust the motives or the the numbers presented to hide the true motives.

I remember a sound that went "she's so fine, there's no telling where the money went..."

If anyone knows pls let me know:

1. Total boxoffice sales worldwide for T4
2. Total income including anything else it may have produced.

$200 mil was the mark right? Did it even get close? I thought it had. If not, my bad.
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dmcgarry
61. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 2 2009, 8:35 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 2 2009, 8:35 PM EST
T4 made about 387M worldwide in theatres.

It's expected to be a big hit on bluray/DVD, so that 387M number isn't the final word on it's ability to make the producers money.
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BattleJuice
BattleJuice
62. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 2 2009, 8:36 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 2 2009, 8:36 PM EST
The following is cribbed from another source, but it's pretty much in the ballpark.

"drop almost 50% of that gross because that’s the split between the distributor and theater chains after the bottom falls out of the 90/10 split of first week of showings. The studios cut for worldwide grosses was less than $154M, so, yes they lost about $100M on the release. They will recoup some of it with DVD sales and broadcast licenses, but it lost serious money."
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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
63. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 2 2009, 8:41 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 2 2009, 8:41 PM EST
"The following is cribbed from another source, but it's pretty much in the ballpark.

"drop almost 50% of that gross because that’s the split between the distributor and theater chains after the bottom falls out of the 90/10 split of first week of showings. The studios cut for worldwide grosses was less than $154M, so, yes they lost about $100M on the release. They will recoup some of it with DVD sales and broadcast licenses, but it lost serious money."
"
Thanks BJ, but my eyes glaze over...

What I do know is that $400 mil was the "majic number" GodFather proclaimed (not $200 mil: my memory failed me) would have T4 be considered a "hit." So $387 mil in theatres is in the ballpark.

Blueray and DVD sales adds to this.

That was my point.

How they split it and where it goes and why is another matter entirely, but that opinion admittedly comes out of my own ignorance about THIS subject...

However, the data still stands that the franchise created sales from the public at this level. It is not the fans fault is greedy SOB's steal, connive and cheat each other from soup to nuts!

That's all I'm sayin'

Peace.
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BattleJuice
BattleJuice
64. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 2 2009, 8:47 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 2 2009, 8:47 PM EST
It's not just the people stealing from the inside. Overseas money isn't calculated or pocketed the same way. Foriegn distributors take a much bigger cut. And it has to do gangbusters to compensate.

I don't know where GF is getting his numbers, but for it to have been unquestionably profitable it would have had to do well into the $250+ range in the US. And in a pretty quick amount of time.

The DVD should have been released sooner (like Transformers), another blunder.

Now it's too little too late.
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ninelives888
ninelives888
65. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 2 2009, 8:51 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 2 2009, 8:51 PM EST
The idea that T4 lost money has become like rumor that works its way around a room growing in intensity every time told. The movie actually did not lose money, it performed less than hoped. Like Microsoft forecast 14% profit and announcing only 9%. Its cause for concern and disappointment but thats it. No movie would turn a profit , if fans had their way with the math. Cut that gross in half and then half again, thats the real profit and the movie cost 200 million......... It did not perform well enough for the brand name and the 200 million dollar budget. We know now how money was borrowed with SHORT TERM , terms. This has caused problems. The next movie will hopefully benefit from hindsight. 1  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
66. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 2 2009, 9:01 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 2 2009, 9:01 PM EST
"It's not just the people stealing from the inside. Overseas money isn't calculated or pocketed the same way. Foriegn distributors take a much bigger cut. And it has to do gangbusters to compensate.

I don't know where GF is getting his numbers, but for it to have been unquestionably profitable it would have had to do well into the $250+ range in the US. And in a pretty quick amount of time.

The DVD should have been released sooner (like Transformers), another blunder.

Now it's too little too late. "
I didn't say "profitable." I said "hit."

That may be where we have some confusion, saying two different things but referring to the same thing.

My world ends on this subject once we get the numbers on what John Q. Public paid to buy some form of T4 entertainment product AS a product. What happens next doesn't concern me (yet); only THAT this money was made vs. an entertainment product that was put out and the public DIDN"T buy it in large numbers.

$387 mil is large numbers IMO. IF the movie cost $200 mil to make and doubling that figure means it is a "hit." then that is all I am (trying to) representing here.

If my logic is off on these points, and needs correction, then please do so.

But...banks got $700 billion approved by Congress as a bailout. One bank was going to use some of that money to buy the Ney York Mets professional baseball team! If that fair to the American public for them to give their hard earned tax dollars and have it used that way? No.

SDo I'm not trying to "follow the money." I already know that TPTB are playing a shell game anyway saying their broke while being rich, famous and powerful.

Let me put it another way: T is a billion dollar franchise over a 25 year history. It just made a third of what it had preveiously earned in just a few months from the latest distribution of its brand. Again, that's all that matters to me right now, bc that alone IS "significant."
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Gusar
67. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 4:16 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 4:16 AM EST
"The idea that T4 lost money has become like rumor that works its way around a room growing in intensity every time told. The movie actually did not lose money, it performed less than hoped. Like Microsoft forecast 14% profit and announcing only 9%. Its cause for concern and disappointment but thats it. No movie would turn a profit , if fans had their way with the math. Cut that gross in half and then half again, thats the real profit and the movie cost 200 million......... It did not perform well enough for the brand name and the 200 million dollar budget. We know now how money was borrowed with SHORT TERM , terms. This has caused problems. The next movie will hopefully benefit from hindsight."
Dude... it made $380 million *gross* at the theater. I repeat, *gross*. To get the net profit, you need to remove the share that the theaters take. It's a 90/10 split for the first week (or two), then 70/30, then even less <- this could be a bit off, but not by much; the point is, the theaters take their share too. The movie cost $200 million to make and $80 million to promote. You do the math. The movie did not make profit. It likely will with DVD money, but at the box office alone, it did not make money. And that's no spin or rumor or whatever, that's pure math. The problem you make is that you take the gross box office number and say that this is how much the movie made. But this is wrong because of the studio/theater split. You also only see the $200 million budget, but (as I did above), you need to add the promo money to that.
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Alexsw
Alexsw
68. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 4:29 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 4:29 AM EST
Regarding the average gross profit movies made the last few years, a studio must be crazy to invest more than 150 million dollars!

On the other hand, the bosses got their money already. If some of the production companys ar dying - so whant?
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The_GodfatherSJP
The_GodfatherSJP
69. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 10:00 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 10:00 AM EST
"I don't know where GF is getting his numbers, but for it to have been unquestionably profitable it would have had to do well into the $250+ range in the US. And in a pretty quick amount of time.
"
I'm getting my numbers for grosses from BoxOfficemojo.com and Boxofficeguru. Also The-numbers.com, which states the movie has grossed 371.6 million in worldwide grosses.

As for the budgeting, the LA Times has reported that Sony paid Halcyon 100 million for international distribution, WB paid 60 million for US distribution, and Halcyon therefore put up at least 40 million of its own money to finance the movie (it's production budget was 200 million). The average marketing budget for a film in 2008 was about 40 million, again according to the LA Times, and since T4 was a summer blockbuster it had marketing of at least double that (the norm for a summer blockbuster, again same source, is 100 million). That's where the $280 million comes from.

As for the studios take from the gross, I figured my numbers this way: 1st week of release nets 90%, then 70% to the studios each week after. The cinemas get the rest of money. The "studio take" is split 50-50 between Halcyon and Sony/WB. From the domestic gross of 125.3 million, that's a "studio take home" of 102 million, which is split 50-50 between Halcyon and WB, 51 million each. Sony and Halcyon split about 192 million from the International take (this isn't an exact match, I didn't feel like looking at the grosses for each country week to week), or 96 million each. So Halcyon gets 147 million in grosses from the movie but paid only 40 million for the budget. That's over 100 million in profit. It's the studios that take a bath. WB put up 60 million for the budget and 40-50 million in marketing, that's a net loss of 50-60 million. Sony put up 100 million and spent 30-40 million in marketing, that's a loss of 35-45 million.
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The_GodfatherSJP
The_GodfatherSJP
70. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 10:09 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 10:09 AM EST
Thing is, if you add the "take home grosses" together, that's 294 million in gross revenue, a profit of 14-15 million BEFORE the DVD is even sold. That's why there's going to be a bidding war over the franchise rights. Even with a movie that underperformed in the US, it still would have a net profit overall if one company controlled the IP. And here's the dirty little secret with Hollywood blockbusters: it's not the actual movie grosses that make the money for a studio. It's the DVD release.

But, because Halcyon owns the rights for T4, they get half of all the revenue. So it's a great deal for them, and bad for the studios.

That's also why the bankruptcy news was so surprising for me. Halcyon should have plenty of cash flowing in from this film. For them to declare bankruptcy, they must be up to their eyeballs in debt.
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ninelives888
ninelives888
71. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 10:14 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 10:18 AM EST
"Dude... it made $380 million *gross* at the theater. I repeat, *gross*. To get the net profit, you need to remove the share that the theaters take. It's a 90/10 split for the first week (or two), then 70/30, then even less <- this could be a bit off, but not by much; the point is, the theaters take their share too. The movie cost $200 million to make and $80 million to promote. You do the math. The movie did not make profit. It likely will with DVD money, but at the box office alone, it did not make money. And that's no spin or rumor or whatever, that's pure math. The problem you make is that you take the gross box office number and say that this is how much the movie made. But this is wrong because of the studio/theater split. You also only see the $200 million budget, but (as I did above), you need to add the promo money to that."
You want to see a flop, Serenity is a flop. It never made back its production budget. 40 million. Surrogates is a flop. It made half its production budget. Don't give me all this split, theater/ take. Yada yada yada. Bottom line its almost 400 million. Thats not a flop. It was disappointing because it didn't make anything near what they thought it could.
Why do you think they talk of T5 almost immediately ?
edit: Up and down the business food chain the movie allowed commerce to happen, and in the end people put in money and were able to employ thousands of people (hoping for the blockbuster). Yes obviously some made more money than others, they will probably play around with budgeting and such so each area can be profitable. But this is how the world turns.
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LiquidMetal
72. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 10:24 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 10:26 AM EST
Box Office History for the T-franchise: http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/series/Terminator.php

T3 beat T4 in all categories except for the initial budget.

Since each movie contract varies its very difficult to gleen specific information on the T-movies. In order to give us some perspective, the following is the breakdown of where the money went for the movie Independence Day. The first number represents millions of dollars and the 2nd is the percentage of the total:

exhibitors worldwide 450 56%

studio interest and distribution fee 115 14%

worldwide marketing 75 9%

production costs 75 9%

Twentieth Century-Fox s net profit 70 9%

producers (Devlin and Emmerich) 15 2%

total 800


If we assume the contract for T4 was similar, Halcyon made little money.





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Gusar
73. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 10:39 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 10:54 AM EST
"1)You want to see a flop, Serenity is a flop.

2) Don't give me all this split, theater/ take. Yada yada yada."
1) Why are you changing the subject again? Refute my points, please. Oh wait, you can't, so you're diverting again.

2) Facts are in your way, so you dismiss them. How predictable.

Edit: Oh, there was a question in your post too. So let me answer that:
Halcyon bought the T rights and made T4 on loaned money. So of course they'll immediately want to make T5, in an attempt to get back as much money as possible. But lookie here, Halcyon is going bankrupt and now needs to auction off the T rights. Why is that, hmm? Ok, Pacificor screwed them over, that played a part. But Halcyon wouldn't be in this position if T4 was a financial success. It isn't, so here we are.

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Gulde
Gulde
74. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 10:46 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 10:46 AM EST
"T4 was the worst Terminator ever !! I hope we get a better Terminator movie hopefully without McG`directing."
T3 was way more worse.
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The_GodfatherSJP
The_GodfatherSJP
75. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 11:12 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 11:26 AM EST
Waitasec:

Fox kept just 70 million from the 800 million gross of Independence Day? That's it?

Could you post the link for this LM? I'd like to see what else I can find for other movies.

EDIT: According to this article in the LA Times, both WB and Sony plan on making bids for the franchise:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2009/11/terminator-to-have-new-owner-by-january.html
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ChrisCoachKKincey
ChrisCoachKKincey
76. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 12:47 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 12:47 PM EST
You guys sound like a bunch of attorneys pouring over minutes of stock and banking companies on Wall Street, trying to figure out how why they went under from their own greed (and trying to justify it.

Fact is, none of you - admittedly - have access to the actual contracts for T4, so we DON'T know, and we'll prolly NEVER know.

Seems like we've done this before...when the show got cancelled, and everyone seemed to KNOW exactly what had transpired but the people involved weren't coming forward and prolly never will.

I know there is a lot of data that can lead to "speculation." Haven't I been called to the carpet on my own observation of data and subsequent speculation about JF?

Nine is right. The movie made close to $400 mil. That's quite an accomlishment - and it's not done earning even as we speak!

It is not our fault - or our job - to track what these blokes do with the money once it is made. Is it?

If it is, then I didn't get that memo AS a "fan."

And I thought I was ranted on for making the suggestion that someway JF might have brought in a fan panel as a sounding board to beta test various concepts to get a sampling of how the market might react. Oh wait, isn't that what Neisen does?

I'd like to say "the defense rests" as some of you prolly feel that you ARE in a courtroom, but we are all just spectators. Don't let this get so serious! (Taking the advice some of YOU - posting in this tread right now - have given ME.)
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The_GodfatherSJP
The_GodfatherSJP
77. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 1:05 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 1:05 PM EST
Yo, easy with the rant there. I explained where I got my own numbers from, and it's always been a guess, plain and simple. I repeated that on the Box Office Mojo gross numbers. It's always been an estimate with the reasoning I provided. Nothing wrong with that. Nor is there anything wrong with giving the fans here an idea of where the money's going and why. Yes, it's all guesswork, we all admit that, but it's EDUCATED guesswork. We're doing research and looking things up so we aren't pulling numbers out of our behinds. You shouldn't yell at us for putting a lot of effort into this.

Moving on, Hitfix has a rundown of each major Hollywood studio and whether they think a bid will be made or not. Link: http://www.hitfix.com/articles/2009-11-3-who-should-and-shouldn-t-win-the-rights-to-terminator

Bottom line, they think Sony is the top contender, WB may be 2nd (they have the ability to bid with Sony but the desire may not be there), then Paramount and FOX for various reasons. Universal and MGM are in the middle of being sold or restructuring to avoid bankruptcy respectively. Then there are the non-major studios who can't quite compete, like Lionsgate and Summit.
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LiquidMetal
78. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 1:13 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 1:13 PM EST
"Waitasec:

Fox kept just 70 million from the 800 million gross of Independence Day? That's it?

Could you post the link for this LM? I'd like to see what else I can find for other movies.

EDIT: According to this article in the LA Times, both WB and Sony plan on making bids for the franchise:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2009/11/terminator-to-have-new-owner-by-january.html"
Here is the link to the ID numbers:

http://www.allbusiness.com/media-telecommunications/movies-sound-recording/7537521-1.html
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Caesis
Caesis
79. RE: Terminator Franchise to be Auctioned Off
Nov 3 2009, 1:15 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 1:15 PM EST
"Waitasec:

Fox kept just 70 million from the 800 million gross of Independence Day? That's it?

Could you post the link for this LM? I'd like to see what else I can find for other movies.

EDIT: According to this article in the LA Times, both WB and Sony plan on making bids for the franchise:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2009/11/terminator-to-have-new-owner-by-january.html"
I'd like WB.

Cause they already know us, and the extremes we will go to for 42 minutes of moving pictures on a screen.
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